Ok guys, I have been at Beaver Run all day with the AV8SS guys. I also had a chance to sit down with the race director and assistant race director and discuss ideas for events. We talked about all kinds of things and I need input.

First. Would anyone be interested in a time trial event at the road courses. Off the top of my head, we were discussing something like a warm up lap, fast lap, cool down lap and doing multiple runs per day (think "large scale autocross", several runs, etc). And, if you would be interested in such a series, what kind of entry fee might get you guys to come out. Meaning, if it's $500 per car, and 2 cars show up, there's no point. If we make it less (and we'd be planning on it....trust me), at what point would people be interested in coming to try it, and would people be interested in such a format? It would not be a "coned off" road course, it would be a single "flying lap" with a warm up and cool down on each end.

Second. HPDE time. I'm trying to work something out for an HPDE format that would be affordable, but we'd need cars to keep the prices down. I know we like HPDE's here, don't we?

Third. I was discussing the frrax track day idea that we've been bouncing around for the last year or so. We talked about pairing it with an AV8SS weekend. We'd need to find where to hold it (Summit Point, Nashville, and VIR were discussed, but we'd be open to others). Any input?

For me, an autocross is most fun beacuse you're going fast enough to make it interesting, but not fast enough to get yourself into a ton of trouble... in the perfect world. If I were to just head out to a road course I would want more of a HPDE on that track first, then your three lap idea would sound better. 1 warm up and then a full blast run would wouldn't give me enough time to get comfortable on track. I always said that when I get out to a HPDE I would take my time and work my way up to the corners. For those more experienced at higher speeds it would be a blast, but for me (right now) it would just be frustrating.

But if we're planning on a FRRAX HPDE then I would be more interested, but not for another year or so. I think both events should go for about the same price as a standard HPDE day.

I love my car on a road course.

And that's the problem.

I haven't done an open track event in a couple of years. I am not willing to put a roll bar in my daily driver, and I can't upgrade the brakes, etc. because it's an FS car. But, I've gotten to the point on a road course where I can't push myself the way I want to because the brakes only last 4-5 laps at Summit Point before I have to give it up due to serious fade (and this is with fresh high temp brake fluid). I can't drive as hard as I really want because in the back of my mind, I'm thinking of what could happen in one of those gravel traps without at least a roll bar.

It has nothing to do with expense, and everything to do with how much I'm willing to risk. And I'm not going to have as much fun driving at 70-80% to compensate for the lack of brakes and bar.

Karen

I was NASA's Texas region Time Trial Co-director last year. It was definitely a step beyond HPDE.

NASA has a well developed classing system that does a really good job of leveling the playing field so that money doesn't win. It works quite well.

Everyone who participated was stoked.

TTers ran in the most advanced run group of HPDE. We had a special windshield sticker so that at grid, TTers had the option to go out first, ahead of the HPDEers in order to get clear track time.

Also, TTers got their session once a day.

I wish American V8 would come to Texas ...



Hallett just outside of Tulsa

Would it make it one lap? I fully understand your thoughts (they are similar to my own), but what's your thoughts on the "autocross on a road course" approach? We've been known to drive all over the country for 5 runs at 50 seconds each. If you got 4-8 runs at a total of 3 laps each, would it be worth the drive (and how's that fit into your thoughts above?)?

Again, nothing's firm, I'm just looking for input. The series is interested in ways to get more people involved and these were some of the things we discussed. So, I'm asking for help.

How was the car count for AV8SS? I heard a rumor that they had to cancel two events earlier this year due to low signup.

I saw Barry Kline's new '05 Mustang at MAM with NASA in June while he was sorting it out. From what I heard, he built it strictly for AV8SS and can't run it in AI/X because he cut out the wiper bucket.

AV8SS sounded cool to me, until I saw the entry fee... which as I just looked at the website seems to have been lowered, at least for the next event.

Since you'll be there tomorrow too, any chance you can find out what the purses are and what horsepower they're making? Maybe it's something to think about for next year.

I don't know of them cancelling any events so far. This weekend was thought to be cancelled (they cancelled the stock car races that were supposed to run with AV8SS) and many people made plans to go elsewhere. So, the field was smaller than usual at this event.

I guess my question is this.....

The AV8SS guys would love to see more cars at the events, we all would. We are looking for ways to use the track time between races. The ideas I mentioned above are some of the ways we'd considered filling that time. So, if you were going to design your own perfect series or perfect car "event", what would you want to see/do? I'm trying to get this information in the hands of the right people and maybe we can make something happen on one or more fronts.

And, the "time trials" that I discussed above, I saw some points brought up (which is what I wanted to see) and would you feel better if we had a practice session for you to learn the track a bit. Something like an HPDE practice session? Or, run HPDE level one and two (or whatever is decided) and then you can run the trials? Or some combination of this. I'm thinking out loud and asking for input right now, so I appreciate any and all comments. I told my friends at AV8SS that I'd be putting this up, so they'll probably be following this thread, and they'll get the info from me too.

I forgot to ask about the purses, I know there are some perks/prizes from Nitto and I'll have to check on the rest.

HP looks to be about 500-ish through an intake restrictor, some cars make far less though. Build it, run it and add power as you get time and money.

I like all the ideas... with the caveat that coming from Florida would limit my attendance outside the Southeastern venues.

We do a SCCA time trial here in Gainesville each year sponsored by our local club. But the attendance is usually way down from a regular AX event which we also hold on the road course. We think this is due mainly because it is a 2 day event (Practice day 1, Race day 2) and because the entry fee is quite a bit more than an AX event. This is on purpose to some extent. Most of the attending cars are highly prepared or race cars.

IRP (Indianapolis) and Memphis both have decent road courses. We have used both for NFME events with good luck.

Bock

Thanks Bock.

We're not looking for 200 car fields (AV8SS still has to run.....), but if we could get 50 time trials cars to show up, we'd be "great" (I think). We discussed our target pricing. If it's too cheap, you'll have "everyone and everything" show up. If it's higher, you get race cars (like you mentioned). If it was less than double the cost of a national autocross event ($150-ish?), would people come? It will surely give you more seat time than a typical autocross event (at least in my experience).

A practice day on Saturday and race on Sunday format could work. Give people something like a 4 lap practice (warm up, 2 laps, cool down). And run a couple times the first day, then the 3 lap competition on day 2? Potentially anything it possible at this point since we're still tossing ideas around. I'm just looking for a format that people would enjoy and trying to maximize safety and minimize anyone feeling like they are rushed. I'd like to get enough seat time in to be comfortable with the track, without running 20 minute "run groups" (that's what HPDE's are for).

Of course, we're interested in HPDE's as well. What pricing would get you guys to events? I know it's going to be a bit of a pricing issue. I say that because track time is expensive, but there are only so many tracks. So, if you like the track, price would be my guess on the one item that will make or break attendance.

I'd come out for such an event (time trails). The question is, will I be there alone?

They ran Sebring this year, I think they've run at Roebling Road too (maybe not this year, but I believe they've run there). Southern events can be done (based on experience).

Howdy,



Man, Hallett is a fun track (or it was, in '97 when I ran there) but its pretty damn far away from, um, _everything_. :-)

I'd vote for Nelson Ledges. Cheap to rent and a pretty challenging track. And its about 50 minutes from my house. :-)

After that, I'd say Gratten was one of the funner "mortal people can afford the rental" tracks I think... At least I assume Gratten's fees aren't crazy.

After helping out Kevin's American v8 Supercar (?? Like I can remember the series name) this past weekend I'm getting a little more serious about getting the z28 done and out on the track. It was fun.

Mark

(also got a few pictures, which will be hosted soon and I'll give you all a link if you're interested.)

(oh! On the point of the topic... :-) I'd be interested for sure. Whether I came or not would depend on cost, track time, etc. Speaking as someone who's looked at putting stuff like this together, I'd say your biggest thing to figure out is what safety gear is required. Requiring a rollbar or cage will certainly cut your entries (but may keep you from getting sued... :-). Ditto SA helmets vs. M, firesuits, gloves/boots, etc. etc. etc.)

Howdy,



Well, I know this past weekend probably wasn't a standard one for those guys, but it was a great example of integrating an HPDE style event (which was also suffering from low entries due to the last minute nature). I'd say you could offer up one or possibly two HPDE sessions along with a 'normal' time trial session without impacting anyone.

What about offering a CMC-style race as well as the AMV8SS stuff? Not sure about legality there, but other folks seem to be able to offer groups that different sanctioning bodies put together...

Mark

Howdy,



Man, for me $150 for like 8 laps or whatever wouldn't be cutting it... That'd be even more true if I needed the same safety gear as I would to go race somewhere.

Seems like $200/day for HPDE events would be a good enough price though, assuming something like three or four 30 minute sessions.

Mark

What's a typical weekend's schedule?

HPDEs around Texas are typicall $225-275 for 8 25 minute sessions over the weekend.

I'm guessing it would be more than 8 laps. But, we run to Colorado to run pro solo's with a handful of 55 second runs for $75 or so. Nothing's a firm price here, just looking for input. I figure I know more racers than most of the field combined (you guys, who else). Everyone has a friend who races, but I have 1,200.......

I'm interested in HPDE thoughts as well. The directors are more than willing to do that as well. Tell me what you want to see (tracks, costs, etc), get me some cars, and I will do my best to make it happen.

The root of this post is:

What would it take to get you to the track to run in a class.

No offense to my AX bretheren, but the limited track time, delays between runs and required course work is why I moved to open track events.

And it wasn't the fact that I was asked to work, it's that certain individuals always had their name next to the desireable jobs ... before they even arrived at the event. hmmm ....

Howdy,



Yeah, but that's the pinnacle of the sport deal there. You go to a ProSolo and the best autoxers in the country are there. This is some random unknown thing.



For me personally right now I'm more interested in an HPDE or two. After that... we'll see. I expect that I'll do some time trial stuff (I'd want more than 10 laps for the day/weekend!) and perhaps a hill climb or two. The HPDE thing that BeaveRun put on this past weekend was $165/day with 100 minutes of track time split over four session (I think it was). That seems reasonable to me.

Of course then I go help some dude at the track and starting thinking about how easy it would be to put some a-pillar bars in the car and go run ITE or maybe AI or CMC or whatever... :-)

Mark

would convertibles be welcomed ?

Probably with a roll bar. I'd have to get a final ruling on that.

i'd go for the fun of doing some track... newer tracks don't = going max pace on them for me.... got to get familiar with them... but would like to increase the pace as day goes along... plus, should be plenty of fun meeting ppl from here face 2 face.

I'm going to throw my ideas out there. It seems that there are 2 things that keep people from doing Open Track Days, HPDEs and Time Trials: first cost and second level of car preparation.

As far as cost goes there are several factors that add to cost, I'm going to use NASA as an example for a 2 day weekend of racing. If you attend HPDE on both days it is about $310 ($150-$170 avg per day), To race in TT is an additional $150, Transponder rental is $50 for a weekend. So we have $510 so far plus $150-$200 for 2 night hotel (depending on how far you are from the track, also on your standards for hotel selection and whether the wife is comming ) so let's say that about $660-$710 and you haven't figured in Tires, Brake Pads, Rotors and Gas at a min. So it can get expensive we all know that. How can we lower the cost? I think if it is a 2 event day do an HPDE's on Saturday, and Practice/Race on Sunday. If you have participated a minimum 3 HPDE's at the particular track you can skip the HPDE segment and do the Practice/Race (TT) on Sunday. This way the more experienced drivers can go to the track practice a couple laps, race and go home at the end of the day (no hotel stay if you are withing an 1-2hr away from the event). Also you could opt to attend the 3 HPDE's at the track and not race. Then once you have completed the 3 HPDE requirements start racing TT then. This will lower the cost cosiderably. If you decide to do HPDE's both days you can polish the requirements to race in 1.5 weekend. At each particular track.

The second point is the level of car preparation, I think that similarly to Open Track days, If the car is fit to do a track day so it should be to compete in a TT race. Classing can stay consistant with AX classing so the transition will be a lot smoother.

Just food for though.
-Alexander

That's the kind of info we're looking for. Thanks Alexander.

I don't know if anything will come of this, but we were discussing it and I have their attention/interest. If "we" as a group want some type of event, now is the time. There's nothing in it for me (except potentially getting some fun events to run if any of these ideas takes off). Im' just trying to help and since I know more racers/car types than most racers (who don't hang out on the internet), I told them that I'd ask you guys for input.

Of course it would make it one lap. But you're also looking at speeds in excess of 100mph at most of these venues, and average speeds are a heck of a lot higher than the 40ish at an autocross course.

Again, I love my car on a road course. But, like I said earlier, it's not just the brakes; I just can't do it any more without the safety equipment. All it takes is one mistake or one failure, and you're going to have a much bigger issue than at most autocrosses. To tell the truth, I'd be more likely to do it at a place like VIR where there are no gravel traps (seen too many cars roll in a gravel trap where they would have slid on grass), even without a roll bar, but soft dirt/mud would be just like gravel in promoting rollovers, so it would also be weather dependent.

Wow ... that is pricey!

In Texas, the HPDE fee was $200 for the weekend, TT was $25/event (event = 1 day) and the transponder rental was $50 for the weekend (they're $300 new).

SIs that a regional thing?

The cost of travel, room and board and car expendables the same during an AX vs track day weekend. I would go through tires at about the same rate. Maybe not brakes. And fuel is definitely more costly for a road course weekend. I burn 3-5 gallons per session!

For this past weekend with Nasa, 2 days of TT was $275 (DE is $245 for 2 day), transpoder rental $60, garage space $35, and Nasa membership $40 (once per year).

Howdy,



Car expendables are the same between a track day weekend and an AX?

Um, not in my experience.

Folks around here get 10 events or so out of their top of the line DOT-R tires before they're unusable (not uncompetitive...) That's about 60 runs. I've never once heard of someone getting 10 days at the track running the latest DOT-R tires.

Brake pads & rotors last indefinately on an autox car. When people are changing them, its because they want a different pad, not because they've worn out. Seems like folks are chewing through brakes a lot faster than that at track days.

The AMV8SS car I crewed for last weekend ran though 20+ gallons of fuel in perhaps 80 minutes or so of track time. Certainly that car drinks fuel, but even if you cut the fuel bill in half you aren't going to come anywhere near that at an autox.

Mark

but time behind the wheel is also much greater too.
I think it's a great event if we can get it going.
We have any ideas on the "WHEN" it would happen ?
are we thinking september ? or something for next year ?

Garage space and NASA membership is really outside this hypothetical equation.

I knew they had gone up $30 for the racers, I didn't realize they had raised the price on the DE guys as well.

So it's $15 a day for TT now?



The great thing about a road course duty is one can have a pretty damn good time on a set of tires that are quite a bit cheaper than the latest incarnation of a Hoosier.

I bought 2 sets of Toyo Proes R1As (8 tires) the begining of last season and still have 3 of them on the ground. I bought a second set earlier this year because my Toyo bucks contingency was about to expire.

I once heard LGs old crew chief say "When compared to a Hoosier, the Toyos suck. But they sure do suck for a long time." You know, he was right.

You are probably right about brake pads. I've gone through 2 sets of pads in the last 2 seasons. But, I still have the original Wagner rotors ...

I was using 1/8" of pad material per pad on the front of my car in 10 autocross runs (me and a co driver) of 50-ish seconds each. I did kill off some pads and rotors last year. My autocross brake bill was about $550 for the season (and street driving). It still adds up.

Howdy,



You can run Toyos and have fun at an autox though... You gotta compare apples to apples here. Track days use up equipment way more than an autox ever thought of.

Mark

I don't think the idea is is making this program a one to one comparison but to bring it a lot closer than it is at the moment. I believe if we are able to get the cost to about half of what it currently takes it will not only be more apealing to serious AX'ers but provide a transitional platform. Toyo's are a durable platform so you can set it up this way, You can run Dot street tires like Nitto RII, Kumhos MX, BFG KD, and Azeni 615's but if you want to step up to an R compound tire you are limited to Toyo RA's. Or have Nitto or Toyo sponsor the event and offer discounts as part of the price if you use their tires. 20% first place, 15% second and 10% third. I'm throwing ideas out there, I think limiting the tire selection to a tire that would last a whole season is a good start though to keeping it cost effective.

Nitto is a sponsor of AV8SS and they sell the tires (NT01's) cheaper than discount tire and most others. So, that could possibly all be taken care of (and maybe quite easily) since the series has a tire sponsor and such already on board.

Hey how about this, 2 hpde sessions, 1 recon, 3 timed, 1 cool down. Ditto for sunday. I like street tires required treadware 140 or higher. But the Nittos don't fit that way, but might have to allow them. 100 bucks a day.

John

I like it.

I'm not keen on the 8 runs a day autox schedule. The reasone I do HPDE's and time trials is so I get more than 10 minutes on track for the whole day. EMRA runs 3-4 20-30 minute practice sessions throughout the day, and then the last session is time trials. The TT is setup in groups of three (honor system, since you tell them what your appx laptime is, and they group accordingly), with a car getting released every 20-30 seconds. You get a half lap warmup, two timed laps, and a half lap cooldown. Once all 3 cars are back in the pits, next group goes out. If you catch the guy in front, you get a re-run. This has worked well, and doesn't require a transponder. NASA (I've heard, never run with them yet) just times you throughout the day with the transponder, so no specific TT session. Regular costs in the Northeast are $130-$200/day for HPDE/TT's. If you keep costs in that ballpark, I'm sure folks will come. It's not such a large world that a "cheap" event will drag out the yokels in their '84 DeVille running on four mismatched tires, so I'd go as cheap as you can make it to cover the costs. The more tracktime you get, the more $ you can charge. All thoughts are IMHO.

At the higher levels I would whole heatedly agree.

But for what we are discussing, at least my perception of what we are discussing, it pretty much evens itself out with a couple of exceptions ... the cost of fuel, mostly.

My thing is having advanced notice. I've got my auto-x schedule and gear, but HPDE's and time trials are expensive to come out of the blue. It's one thing to add an auto-x to my schedule, but track time with the brake and tire differences, that's some $ I need to plan for. I just need heads up.

As some have been mentioned, it would be nice if classing were similar to auto-x so us F-stockers wouldn't be too out of place. Tires and wheels are another story. I have a set of 17's I use now because my spare 16's have auto-x only tires, but that's my own issue I guess. I wouldn't dare track the 16's I have on my street wheels.

NASA's TT program started in Socal were I run, and they do it right. When I look at the other region's price's, even the great Laguna Sega is put on the back burnner!

It's $225 if you pay online for WSR and BRP and $300 I think for Cal speedway. And is the same for HPDE1 thur TT. The transponder is $30 for the weekend and no fee for teching a car.

We get 4 20min sessions each day no matter what, with TT getting a 5th(a shootout) on some weekends.

If you can keep fees/cost down and give them lots of track time, they will come!