I have a lot of friends that ride sport bikes. They've talked before about how fast bikes
are around a road course but I tend to wonder just how fast they are in comparison
to cars? How close hypothetically would a stock C5 ZO6 be in comparision to a
Hayabusa or any other current production bike on a road coarse given a skilled
driver/rider? I remember the old article of the Viper vs the then fastest production bike
in one of the car magazines and the Viper won, so I'm guessing it's close but maybe the
bike would win. That's also taking into acount an expert rider on the bike aka someone
that's crazy.

On a road coarse, the bike would be im guessing!

i have a lot of trouble seeing any advantages that a car might have...

motorcycle:
better weight/power...
better + and - acceleration
less air to push around
less suspension problems


what advantage does a car have?

there was a magazine with comparing a Z06-C5 and a GSX-R1000 @ the track... and the Z06 wa pretty much keeping up.
They even had graphs of speed (bike vs car) at all points of the track.
Was a great article.

Anyone have links to this magazine?

On the TV show Fifth Gear, they raced a Lambo around a track and a Ducati, the Bike won that race. Then they raced a Mosler and the Ducati, the Mosler won that one. I'm not sure how accurate all their data was, but it was fun to watch.

Fifth Gear ROCKS! Everyone should watch that show.

I would've thought, given equally skilled drivers, that a vette-bike-equivalent would walk all over a vette on a track.

on that article, they were both pro's and although the bike was substantially faster, especially top speeds, they review was astonished @ the performance of the Z06.
It was on a motorcycle magazine (I think) or was it a car magazine... damm memory.
I'll see if I can find the article.

Cool. I'm sure there is a link online somewhere.

Better braking and cornering. Four wide tires beats two skinny ones.

I think it was Top Gear where they raced a Porcshe and a racing bike, both pro drivers. The Porcshe (something 4wd) edged out the bikes.

Soma's right, the bike blasted the car on the straights, but the car can corner much better.

Got it!!!
http://www.crystalridge.net/stuff/c4vsr1.wmv

It all depends on the track. lets take the infamous "Green Hell" (Nuerburgring) . The fastest street production bike time is a Yamaha R1 at 8m 15 secs. This was done with a professional rider on Metzlers . I myself clock the ring @ 8m30 secs. 99 percent of the bikes are just moving chicanes in front of me when we hit the twisties and off cambers. But take off like a rocket on the sweepers and straights.

here are some comparison times for other stock production cars on the ring vs. the R1
New GT3: 7 min. 54 sec.
Old GT3: 8 min. 03 sec.
GT2: 7 min. 46 sec.
996 Turbo: 7 min. 56 sec.
CTS-V: 8 min. 19 sec

Awesome video. It's definitely going to depend on the track as to what's faster.

Not a bad time for the CTS-V considering it's a four passenger.... CADILLAC!!! Who would have thought a few years ago that a Caddy could just about run with ANY Porsche, much less keep up with a R1!!!! And the new XLS will have 440 hp along with the 4 wheel drive STS with 440 hp. Who knows what the new CTS-V will be like... I'm guessing they'll give it the new LS7.

Sorry... got a little off topic there....

We have a road down here called Tail of The Dragon ( http://www.tailofthedragon.com ) with 318 turns in 11 miles. Even with street tires on my Camaro, crotch rockets couldn't keep up with me except on the straight parts. I had one guy that I practically had to come to a stop just to get him to pass me. I guess I understand why, after he passed , he couldn't loose me and I had to slow down.

i completely disagree...

the deceleration of a motorcyle is much better than a car... a motorcycle will slow down as fast as you can hang on


a car has more rubber but it has more than 4 times the weight of a motorcyle... a Z06 weighs 3000 lbs and any top of the line sport bike will be between 350 and 450 lbs.. i the only advantage i see between 2 and 4 tires is that it is easier to drive on 4 tires


looks like the only advantage i see so far is horsepower...

I think corner speeds are where the car leaves the bike and transitions.
The fact that you can toss a car thru a chicane and you really have to slow
down on a bike to move your weight back and forth makes the car a lot
faster thru those types of turns.

Skill is also a major factor. Not many people have the skill or guts to drag
knees on a bike and drift the rear wheel around turns.
In general more people can drive a car fast as compared to the skill level
and guts of a bike rider.

bruecksteve

All of my biker friends ride the Dragon's Tail regularly in the summer.
I just bought a 1997 Yamaha YZF600R and might have to tag along with them
one time then take the Formula and see if they can keep up.

I have had both, have roadraced bikes {no car road racing yet but dieing to try} and I would give the nod to bikes most of the time IF the guy on the bike is good. As it's already been mentiened, it takes alot of skill and guts to to ride a bike fast. Most car enthusiasts are at a higher level than most bike enthusiasts.

I can remember my times at little Talladega on a production Yamaha FZR 400 {TGPR}, they were in the mid to high 1.05 range. I believe my times at Roebling Road were in the middle 1.26s if I remember right {dern near 15 years ago now}. My times at Road Atlanta on the old configuration were in the 1.50 range I think. I was a mediocre racer,,, I actually ran with Aaron Yates in several practices and we were a match at the time. He kept at it and got better,,, I didn't {crushed vertabra have a way of shrinking your balls}.

{QUOTE}Better braking and cornering. Four wide tires beats two skinny ones. [QUOTE]

[QUOTE] i completely disagree...

the deceleration of a motorcyle is much better than a car... a motorcycle will slow down as fast as you can hang on [QUOTE]

Cars are pulling ahead of bike in the braking department, the better sports cars will out brake the better sport bikes for the most part. But,,, were are only talking a few feet 0-60 or 70. Bikes generally have better on-track braking {little or no fad for the most part}.


Steve,,, have you ever played around on Hwy129 North {Blood Mountain}? The reason I ask is because Deals Gap {Tail of the Dragon} is a bit on the tight side for a bike,, much less a car. I think that the riders you were playing with were on the new side {actually the sane side}. Not saying that you can't run with em,,,, just that in that environment, the bkes have an advantage and there might be a reason that you were able to play with them.

I play around on Hwy 129 a bit still, I know that road pretty good. I do not go balls out,,, just a fun pace. A good rider on a good bike will leave me for dead on that road. If I tried to keep up,,,, I would be running alot faster than I should be on public roads. I don't like doing that. Back when I was young and dumb{before I started racing}, a bunch of us used that road and a few others {including Deals Gap} as our own personal Isle of Man TT course. We never once had a car keep up well and we were there nearly every weekend, 3-5 months a year for 2-3 years. Not saying a great driver and car wouldn't have beat us,,,, it's just that bikes have a huge advantage in that environment. I will admit to playing with a few sport bikes, it is fun to give a cocky inexperience rider a fit,,, I've done that several times myself but as I said,,, a good rider will wax my butt but please understand that I'm no great driver either.

You can shell out 10-12 grand on a new bike and IF you are a great rider, you will be able to either beat or hang with a car that costs 5-10 times as much. Once you start modding the bike and the car, the car will ultimately win {the fastest cars will beat the fastest bikes}. Only drawback to the bike is that is has a pretty steep learning curve and not everyone is cutout for bikes. I've seen alot more good car drivers that I've seen great bike riders AND a good bike rider is generally a good car driver, the inverse is usually not always true.

I'm pretty sure Michael's F1 Ferrari will beat Valintino Rossi's Yamaha around most tracks????? Maybe not, but I would be willing to bet on the Ferrari. F1 and Moto GP rarely do the same tracks and if they do,,, there is usually chicanes or whatnot added to the track for one or the other. JMO

Thanks for the video....pretty cool!

I've run 1:09's at Little Talladega in my car. Just not enough power.

Is that the road that heads up toward Brasstown Bald? If so, yes. Bikers are crazy on that road. The idea of staying in your lane escapes those guys.

I might go fast on those roads but ALWAYS in my own lane. And because they're so tight, speed isn't that much of an issue.

braking... one would think that bikes brake harder than cars... but it's not true... look @ figures of 60-0 braking.

still not the article I had in mind.
the one I have in mind was Kevin Schwantz riding the Gixxer 1000 and Z06 back to back last year in Motorcyclist. Schwantz has raced pro in both car & motorcycling racing. He turned in a time close to the SCCA record in the Corvette

still looking for the article.

no link, but this:
the April 02 issue of MotorCyclist, page 60

HAHAHA!!!
Here it is...

2002 Z06 vs 2002 Suzuki GSX-R1000 (Motorcyclist Apr-02)
http://solo2.abac.com/avigdor/mags/motorcy.../carvsbike.html

enjoy the reading.

For added pleasure:
here are some more:

The fastest cars in the world and a bone stock 2000 Kawasaki ZX12R (Road & Track Jun-00)
http://solo2.abac.com/avigdor/mags/roadand...e2000/Page.html

Dodge Viper GTS VS. Yamaha YZF1000R (Car & Driver Dec-96)
http://solo2.abac.com/avigdor/mags/carandd...c1996/Page.html

1966 427 Cobra SC VS. 1985 Yamaha V-Max(Cycle World May-85)
http://solo2.abac.com/avigdor/mags/CycleWo.../maxvscobra.htm

I'm guessing the bike walked the ZO6 so hard because Willow is a pretty
"straight" wide open track. The more straights the better the track's
suited for a bike, or even long sweepers. Throw in some chicanes and I
bet it throws a wrench in the bike's times.

Either way how many mods would the ZO6 really be away from the bike?
Tires, cam, and supporting bolt-ons maybe?

The bikes are impressive but I don't know how they'd fair against
a new Viper or the upcoming C6 ZO6, especially on a tighter course.

Just because you can't see them it doesn't mean they aren't there. Watch the video bruecksteve posted. The 911 is clearly outbraking the bike by a wide margin.

I think the road that goes by Brass Town Bald is Hwy 75, that road goes through Helen. Highway 129 runs from Athens, through Gainesville, Cleveland and Blairsville Georgia. The part I'm talking about is between Cleveland and Blairesville. Great road for a Sunday afternoon, like it better than most I've seen. Richard Russel Scenic Parkway {Alternate 75} is also a great road but it also has alot of gravel on it. Highway 60 from Dahlonega through Suches is real tight. It's actually alot like Tail of the Dragon.

Actually, we need to try to get a GAFBA ride up through there one weekend.

The car's going to be faster.

For some comparison:

The MotoGP lap record at Malaysia is a 2:03:822 held by Rossi.

The F1 lap record is held by Montoya is a 1:34.223

The MotoGP lap record at Catalunya is a 1:45.472 set by Rossi in '03.

The F1 lap record is a 1:17.450 held by Shumey.

Yes, its a bit tough to compare an F1 car to any other sort of road race vehicle, whether it have 2 or 4 wheels. You could compare AMA Superbike times to Indy Car times at Laguna Seca. I recall checking them earlier last year and the Indy cars are quite a bit faster than the bikes.




-N

How about downforce and other aero features on a car?

The braking zone before the last chicane in particular ... the bike had just taken the lead on the back stretch, and the Porsche out-braked him before that chicane.

"... and now bikers everywhere can just SHAT UP!"

Pat

I have 2 good friends who ride different bikes ( Sorry but I don't know the particulars of their bikes) at 2 different race tracks I compete on. Both of them hit fastest speeds (confirmed by radar) that range from 15 to 20 mph faster than I do, yet my lap times are consistantly lower (much to their chagrin). I have no reason to believe I am a better driver as one of the Bike drivers won his race class this year against sig competition. BTW one of the tracks is VERY fast ( Mosport) and the other significantly slower (Pro track at Shannonville).

Knowing how much they beat me in a straight line yet how I beat them lap time wise is easy proof to me that 4 wheels out handle 2 wheels anyday.

As to which brakes better? Who cares, brakes only slow you down.

Important factors to take into consideration when comparing bikes and cages...

Braking... A bike isn't limited by it's mechanical grip in braking. Any decent road going bike out there can brake so hard the tail will whip right up and over. The best riders will brake right on that edge where the back tire is barely kept on the ground. When you've got it just right, the rear tire will only be skipping lightly across the ground. The high center of gravity of the bike keeps it from reaching it's full stopping potential.

However, unlike a cage, a high center of gravity is actually necessary for good cornering. The lower the center of gravity, the more you have to lean the bike to ride through a given corner at a given speed. If it's too low, you'll be dragging pegs, frame rails, and exhaust before reaching the potential limits of the bike itself.

Mechnical grip. The comparison is not just a simple matter of comparing 2 tires to 4 tires. The tire designs themselves have to be accounted for, and with motorcycle tires, you have a tire carcass that is also curved laterally, so at no point do you have the entire width of the tire in contact with the road. Then you get into tire sizes as well. Many street bikes today are running a 120 series up front and 180 series out back. For any of the cars mentioned in this thread so far, those are considered seriously narrow tires. Many of these cars are running tire widths in the 245-335 range, with the entire width in contact with the road surface, not just roughly 1/3rd or less of the width.

An AMA superbike on racing tires is going to pull about 1.3-1.4 Gs max in the corners. If I'm not mistaken, Formula Cars are capable of upwards of 3 Gs in the corners, and most other professional racing series are capable of better than 1.3-1.4 Gs as well.

And has been already said here, motorcycles require more skill to drive fast, are more dangerous to drive fast, are less forgiving when you push them a bit too hard (although there are some cars that have a reputation for being unforgiving as well, but in general every sports bike is like that).

Another Top Gear Video - http://www.kuecker.net/downloads/Videos/To...r_ArielAtom.wmv

Edit - Damn, the link above doesn't work, but the video is out there. Do a search on Ariel Atom and see what you find.

There are many in this series trying to find the fastest street car in the world around the road course they made. "Stig" is an ex F1 driver but they never say who he is exactly. Anyway, this Ariel Atom is my kind of car. If you can see his cheeks rippling in the wind and not have it send chills up your spine you're just simply not a car guy. Near the end they race a 600cc street bike around the course. It looks like too much fun for words.

I love those Ariels. Your basic no nonsense high performance street legal race cars, but no chills up my spine. Then again, I've always suffered from an inherent lack of fear.