Below you will see a link to a post that was supposed to be discussing the next Camaro. However, I seem to be butting heads with the guy named IZ28 that seems hellbent on proving the IROC-Z is a better handling car than any 4th gen ever made.

I find this very hard to believe considering the improvements in the 4th gen front suspension plus the availablility of 17" tires later on. He's quoting imaginary kid pad numbers like they are gospel.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread....d=1#post2354233

If anybody is interested, I could use some fact-based assistance. He claims 3rd gens still dominate F-stock to this day...I kinda find this hard to believe.

Not that I am anti-thirdgen, I've owned two of them, including an IROC, so don't take my opposition to this guy the wrong way. I just don't agree with his "facts."

this is similar to the C4 versus C5 arguement. both have their advantages and both have their weaknesses. i honestly don't know any road test or facts, but i do know for a fact the WS6 suspension on the formula, GTAs, and TAs was beyond what the IROC had. and it should have performed better with that stuff, but i don't have any data off hand.

i think with the advances in the engine from the third to fourth gen it is very hard to really tell which is better. while the L98 is very good engine and can make huge power in the right hands, it is trumped by the LT1 in stock ro bolt on form, just as the LT1 is trumped by the LS1.

and for the record i never thought thirdgens were uncomfortable, except for the posh GTA(which I love) i just felt cramped in there, maybe i should have given it more time. im gonna own a notchback one day.

i do hope sam reads this is, he has and runs or ran a 92 Z as well.

I'm dealing strictly with the always elusive "handling" category.

What little I do have to offer....

I have heard Sam talk about how much better the 3rd gens handle.
In fact the main reason for building his current car for ESP was the engine HP. He does own an ESP 3rd gen too.

Mike Johnson, FS Champ proceeded to tell 2 STI owners, 2 Porche owners and a few others at an Evo school that a 3rd gen IS a true sports car, despite what people think, and that you just hit the brakes until they start to lock, and then hit the gas.

FWIW the Kozlaks were DAMN fast in a 3rd gen that had an AUTOMATIC. It has won championships too.

My money is on the 3rd gen every time. In non transitional stuff like road racing they are more even. And the PHR threads are your answer to why

Sorry Chris but I gotta agree with him.

I figured I'd hop in and help out. But, it appears that he is past the point of reason. It is "3rd gen or else" with him.

Change of heart. I just couldn't help myself. I had to post.

I wouldn't waste your time Chris. Like it's already been said, each generation of Camaro has their pro's and con's over each other. I think if you kept the conversation specific to something like what car is best for F-Stock it might be a worthwhile discussion. Otherwise it's really just opinion IMO

Besides... all our cars are anything but new now. Especially an IROC which is at least 15yrs old. How well does Johnny IROC over there think his 15yr stock springs and shocks are still performing. Or are we not talking stock anymore? Just too many variables. The IROC was one of the greatest handling cars back in the day :leaving: but that was 15yrs ago...

These smilies are fun

Any car can be made to outhandle any other stock car. Any car in the wrong hands can't turn at all. That being said I don't think arguing over anything like this is worth it. Stock number vs. stock numbers for handling change with tire technology. Now, try finding a thirdgen with stock bushings/spring/shocks then add the same tires for both cars and figure it out. But wait.... the tires wont be factory issue! So there goes your number again!

In 1985, I bought an IROC-Z new off the showroom floor. In 2001, I bought a Camaro SS new off the showroom floor after putting over 200,000 miles on the IROC. Although I loved the IROC and it took me through many of life's adventures through the years, including two wives, I must say it never handled or had power like my '01 SS. I know there was more flex in the chassis because the hood moved and the T-tops creaked when I hit small bumps in the road. I also owned two 1967 fbodys, and I must say with each new generation great improvements have been made in all areas.

There's a guy that I autox with on occasion that drives an '89 T/A 1LE in F stock. He really turns some great times inspite of the car rolling and rocking in every direction on soft springs and skinny tires. This guy is one hell of a driver, and I would like to see what he could do with a Z06. Point is, the driver is 90% of how a car turns.

well... skidpad results are definately useless... the skidpad has absolutely nothing to do with transitions...


as far as autocross goes.. the 4th gens definately have some big disadvantages.. 4th gens are wider and heavier especially if you get into ESP...

width and weight are PHYSICAL limitations.. third gens are faster in autocross..


both third and fourth gen front suspensions do their jobs very well...
stock for stock, the fourth gen front suspension is more stable if you ask me, but keep in mind that i have never driven a brand new third gen... third gens need strut tower braces for stability and fourth gens do not


bottom line is that both cars have suspensions that work very well.. the 4th gen has some serious disadvantages on an autocross course



if 4th gens could compete in ESP, then surely there would allready be some well known LT1 ESP drivers.. it is a lot cheaper to buy an LT1 4th gen than a 3d gen... my car was 5000 bucks and that was a relatively good deal(car was in pretty sad shape when i got it)...

keep in mind that a LT4 Camaro was faster than Sam when Sam won his ESP national championship... but that car had illegal modifications and got disqualified(extended camber slots)


If ESP rules allowed 4th gens to gain more camber, then we would get some more evidence on which front suspension is superior.. but then third geners could blame their losses on the horsepower of LT1/LS1/LT4 engines



how could you ever compare the cars on a road course?.. you can't... if you gave both cars LS1 motors, then the third gen would be lighter up front... if you gave both cars L98 motors, then the 4th gen would gain weight on the front end... there really just isn't a way to come up with a fair comparison


that IZ28 guy is just an enthusiast, not an engineer.... neither one of you is right or wrong... there really isn't enough evidence to entirely prove either of your points of view


i'm excited about seeing this years ESP results... Sam has been running his LS1 car in ESP(i assume he'll run it at nationals) and i think it will be interesting to see how well he does... but even if he does win, it will not be a landslide victory

Kevin, thanks for the excellent post. Seems that discussion really took on a new life after I went to bed.

I wasn't necessarily trying to "win" the argument by proving the guy wrong, just to get him to admit that what he thinks is fact is really just personal preference and opinion supported by anecdotal evidence, a few abberrant skidpad tests, and personal feel on the street.

He's now backed down from the fact claim and now just states its his opinion, which is all I really wanted in the first place. I think its far from an open and shut case, that's all.

I'm very good at not losing arguements. I gave him enough conflicting info to effectively prove the whole point moot. Hence the 911 specs. I'm sure he won't say his IROC will keep up with a 911, at least not in the grand scheme of things.

Holy Cow!!! This is cool (well that my name came up so much anyway....).

First, my experience with both cars:

I own a '91 1LE that I ran in F-stock in 1997 and 1998, finishing 7th and I think 6th at Nationals those years. In '98 I won a LOT of events, but hadn't learned to deal with the pressure of the big one..... I also lost a ProSolo Championship in '98 on a tie-breaker as well. Then I took said car to ESP in a very, VERY mild form (scarily little done to it and have learned much since) in 1999 and Finished 3rd at Nationals, and 3rd in the ProSolo series championship in a short-lived class that pitted ESP cars against SS C4 Corvette's. All three of those years I was the fastest car on Kumho's if memory serves.....

In 2000 I ran an RX7 in Super Stock, so it doesn't count, but I finished 4th, top car on Kumho's

Also in 2000 I ordered a 2001 Z28 to run in F-stock for in '01. I was contracted to Kumho and hence was committed to their tires, at the time through some testing found that I was better off to take the other option available to me for the year.

So in 2001 I ran a '99 Firebird (1LE, Formula, WS6 a rare combo, not that it matters). Won a number of events while fiddling with the car and chasing down clutch and floorpan problems. Completely f*cked up the ProSolo Finale. And then Sept 11th happened. Nationals became a one course, 3 run event. I finished 4th about .6 back of Madarash. But the car was capable, I did cone a run that was .054 slower (which still would have had me only 3rd). Again, first car on Kumho's in 4th, next was the car owner/co-driver in 10th and the next one wasn't until around 20th.......

I decided to give up my Kumho contract for 2002 and switched to Hoosier's. The Firebird was sold back to it's original owner (HI DAVE!) and Mike Snyder bought the '82 Camaro because it was a good deal and I knew it was pretty fast because I had hammered my time in the RX7 once at a test and tune in only 2 runs.... At the time ESP on the east coast was poorly subscribed, and I felt my driving has suffered in 2001 a bit because of it. So I decided to run ProSolo's in F-stock against the Kozlak's and Mike Johnson and ESP for Tours and Nationals.

In 2002 I won both the F-Stock ProSolo Championship and the ESP National Championship. I ran the Pro in my F-stock 4th gen, had Monday off and ran Nationals in the 3rd gen. Yes, I was the overall the 2nd fastest car on raw time in ESP. However I was the fastest on the South Course (first day) and the car that was fastest had some camber that I'd love to get in my 4th gen now that it's ESP, but am not allowed too... Camber helps. Add to the fact the North course had a HUGE straight that the Z06's were banging the limiters in 2nd and you can see that an LT4 car that also has a '93 trans had a little advantage over a L98 car that won't rev past 5k happily...... That's no excuse, but is part of the reason I decided to build an LS1 for ESP. Also, I'd have finished 3rd in SS for the event on time and 2nd in SM too. And we ran first heat on Tues/Wed. It was cool and no rubber was down. I.E. I went WELL, and Paxed very high though I don't remember where......

Now that you know my f-body background, here is my take:

Handling is subjective.

If you could find a bone stock 3rd gen with GOOD (not worn out) factory shocks and pit it against a bone stock 4th gen the same way, I'd be much more comfortable and quicker the old car on a back road or autox.

Aftermarket shocks on a 4th gen help much more than aftermarket shocks on a 3rd gen do (again provided they aren't junk and they all are now). Also, the best 3rd gens had hollow 36mm front swaybars stock. They don't benefit from a swaybar change like a 4th gen does. Now the driveability is much much closer, but the 3rd gen is more nimble. It's smaller and has a bigger rear swaybar and narrower rear axle.

Add ESP things to the mix. I firmly believe that a 4th gen can "handle" as well as a 3rd (and at times better), but it is DIFFERENT. And the 4th gen is always the harder car to drive fast. I wouldn't be building one if I thought I couldn't eventually make it faster than the old car was. I already think that the new car is faster on some courses, and on other smaller ones it's not. We aim to keep improving. That's what I do.

Does this settle things? I'm sure not. The cars are similar in a lot of ways, but the front suspensions are very different. The 3rd gen handles well, but also is a lot harsher than a 4th gen of "equal" ability. Each car has it's pluses and minuses......

Feel free to forward it to the other board.

Well put Sam.

He was so hung up on skid pad numbers as the holy grail of handling that he had skewed his view of the big picture. While overlooking the differences of skid pad diameter, surface prep, etc.

I think they are as similar as they are different and as you've proven, both are capable performers. Though, I must admit that my 3rd gen felt "lighter on it's feet" than my current car. And, I've got far more money and better components in the new car....not that it is always the answer.

I weighed in over in that thread late in the game...

I think we owe to the folk involved over there to see this thread....

Do you really want to bring them home?

I've enjoyed the debate so far...even if it has gotten a bit petty over there.

I did get a chuckle out of the Special Olympics quote, though it is somewhat politically incorrect.

This individual has been passing his various opinions off as fact in that forum forever. Most times everyone just kind of rolls their eyes and moves on with the conversation. This time though, he got called on it.

Hell, I even got torqued up enough to post. That never happens.

BTW...that's an awesome forum to follow. Bickering like that is the exception rather than the rule and there is A LOT of good future vehicle info to be had.

I only ever had one problem with a guy named Mark85z28 as I remember. He refused to listen to reason or anything else and just wanted to fight. I went back to delete all my posts and the thread was gone (I'd have done the same thing). Otherwise, I don't have any problems there.

Yup, the 5th gen forum is excellent and I spend far too much time there