Hello all,

Figured I'd introduce myself beings I have been poking around for a bit now. My name is Jay and my father Jim(Zfactor 56) and I are building a track car out of an 86 Firebird SE we picked up back in 2004. We auto crossed it a lil bit after we first got it, till we fried the computer. We managed to pick up an 89 Formula for a donor car. As of right now we have the stock drive train from the 86(305 carbed, 5 spd, drum rear) in it. The car has the WS6 springs and sway bars off the 89, along with a wonderbar, ADCO panhard bar and SA Koni's we picked up from Stranos. We are undergoing a long lists of mods to get it ready for some HPDE so I can hurry up and get my butt into running TT with NASA. We are starting to get some of the parts in for the engine rebuild(89 donor motor). We are hopeing to be putting out roughly 400HP and 400+TQ, at the flywheel. We are putting on a set of Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, Performer RPM air gap, Comp roller rockers, Cloyes dual roller timing set, an Edelbrock roller cam, Holley Carb(size and model undetermined yet), ATI super dampner, Fidanza flywheel, a Center Force dual friction clutch and a set of Hooker long tube headers. We already have an MSD 6AL in the car, just need to figure out if we're gonna stick with the HEI or switch to an MSD pro billet distributor and coil. We are going on a road trip tomorrow to pick up an LS1 rear end complete with brakes. We have a WC T5 tranny we are going to be throwing in it as well. The brakes have been my biggest headache as Kevin(trackbird) can attest to. Thank you for all the advice! I'm figuring I'll be good with the rear LS1 brakes, I just gotta figure out the fronts. I was originally thinking on going with a C5 setup up front but have been thinking more about the 4 piston calipers being a better way to go since this car will only be seeing the track. I got a price quote from Baer on their track 4 brake package and it seems to be a pretty good deal. I gotta call them back as I forgot to ask for the rotor dimensions. We have the prop valve out of the 89 since it had 4 wheel disc and with what I've been reading we should be good as far as brake bias goes. Down the road an adjustable one will be installed for sure. Eventually we would like to change out the trailing arms and be fully heim jointed in the rear. I plan on sticking with the stock front lower control arms since I've been hearing they are pretty stout and should be suffice for now. Plus we already have poly bushings in them. The springs are something else we'd like to change out and add weight jackers while we're there. I'm thinking on going the route Kevin did with springs, just wanna do some more research on spring rates so I can get it right the first time. Then have the Koni's re-valved for the new spring rates. We have a six point suicide cage installed along with 5 points and a pair of Tenzo racing seats. Later mods will include oil cooler and accumulator, aluminum radiator and a few others I'm sure I forgot. As of now we are trying to get the car painted if the damn weather would cooperate with us. The interior is gutted and will most likely stay that way when we reassembe it. I'm thinkin just the carpet and door panels should go back in. Don't need the extra weight anyway I'll start posting some pics as we get further along with the build, and when I figure out how to post them. Any advice you guys want to offer up, I'm all ears.

I'd dig up a T56 out of an LT1 car. That T5 isn't going to like that HP level for very long and will probably turn into your biggest problem. Also, the T56 uses a completely different clutch and flywheel, I'd hate to see you have to buy that stuff twice. The swap is easy!

Having raced a 3rd gen and 4th gen in the Camaro Mustang Challenge for many years I can tell you you need less brake in the rear unless you like wheelhop! Stick with your stock brakes in the rear for sure. Actually folks tell me the LS1 rears have beefier brakes and that is not an advantage. You should plan on an in car brake proportioning valve where you can get at it and adjust it while you drive. Fellow Norcal CMCer Mike Plum is on his second third gen, I would talk to him. His new CMC2 car is set up really nice.
Camaro Mustang Challenge

Definitely get rid of the T5. Those cost me a lot of better finishing positions!

Thank you both for the advice. I already picked up the LS1 rear end. It ended up being a 3.42 LSD and I picked up the entire rear end including the brakes for $300.

I am now looking for a 93-97 donor LT1 car so I can nab the T56 and all other parts required for the swap. Plus I'll get to make a lil bit of money parting it out.

I'll put a proportioning valve at the top of my list of things to get. We have been debating on putting in the Unbalanced Eng. decoupled torque arm. The way it's described in how it works, it should help a lil with wheel hop, correct? Is anyone runnning one of these that can comment on how well it works for the big tracks?? Will the brake bias still be off that much if I am running 13" fronts with 4 piston calipers?

Kevin, is there any specific year or optioned cars that are better than others when I am looking for a donor car for the tranny? Are there any years to stay away from?

I will look up Mike and send him a PM.

I don't know of any upgrades to the T56. As always, if I'm looking at two and one is a '93 and one is a '97, I'd buy the '97. But, I can't remember what (if anything) was upgraded and when. The one in my car is (as I remember) from a '97, but I'm not going to swear that's correct. Any of them are far better than a T5.

I'm probably going to swap in an Unbalanced Engineering decoupled TA at some point. The extra bite off of the corners seems like a nice benefit and the race version fits a 3rd gen just fine (since you have to fab some of it up anyway). Currently, I'm not running a proportioning valve and I'm not having brake hop problems, but I've also been running on mostly street rubber or very "dead" race tires. So I'm not sure I'd know if I'll have problems at this point. I'm running C4HD brakes on the front. They aren't the best, but they are far better than the stock 10.5" 3rd gen brakes.

As a side note, the '93 was a specific model year and lots of things are rumored to not swap over (it has a chip in the ECM and not a flashable prom). I don't know the specifics, but I thought there were even some body panel differences (don't quote me on that). Either way, I'd probably avoid buying a '93 to part out if possible.

You didn't mention what wheels/rims you're running...so if you're using 16's with stock offsets, the LS1 rear end you bought is not going to work. 4th gen rear end axle housing are 3 inches wider than 3rd gens.

So what are your plans with this car after TT? Depending on what drivetrain loss you see, your 400 hp / 400 tq might put you over for AI and straight to AIX. You didn't mention any aero or other lightening mods so you're going to be heavy and very slow for AIX.

Let me be the first to tell you to STOP what you're doing right now and make a plan. Pick a class, talk to someone that's been running that class for years and do what they tell you. You need track time first and HP LAST. I'm guessing with the mods you've mentioned that you'll be competing with Corvettes, Porsches, and BMW's and will get your ass handed to you in TT.

You're 2 to 3 years away from TT as you'll need to work your way through the HPDE ranks. Build the car to the basics of CMC then just get seat time.

Been there...done that,

Sidney Franklin
Midwest Region
Autocross/TT/AGS/AI/CMC....now CMC2.

For now I will be running a set of C4 17x9.5's with 275 A6's that I have been using for HPDE on my Corvette. These will be perfect for the rear but I will need spacers/adapters for the fronts. I have future plans to switch to a set of 17x10 CCW's or other comperable lightweight race wheel.

As of right now I am unsure of where I will go from TT, I'll have to do some more research on the CMC, AI and AIX. I really haven't done too much in the way of lightening other than interior removal and removing the windows and all hardware from the doors. We are thinking bout eliminating the heater core assembly housing and blocking off the holes left in the firewall.

With all the figures we have as of right now, we are building the car for a base class of TTB, even though our adjusted hp/wt ratio will put us into TTA regardless of points. The good news is that gives me 20 more points worth of mods since the way the car sits right now I only have 19 points with a TTB base class(13 points for A6's, 1 pt for 275 tires, 3 points for shocks and 2 points for PHB). If I am reading the rules correctly, I will have to take a 1 pt hit for the rear end swap, another 3 points for the tranny and 2 points for non oem calipers.

I have been running HPDE with my Corvette and am up to HPDE 3. I know track time is huge, especially since the 3rd gen is gonna handle so much different from my C4 Vette. I just want to get the car setup for the class I am going to be running so that way when I do get to TT, I won't be trying to learn the car again.

Thank you for the advice, now I have more options to chew on.

Thanks Kevin, that falls right in line of what I was thinking with stickin with the later models. I already found a couple 97's for around $2k

Jay,

That info changes things some as there is a big difference between a guy that has done some parking lot autocrosses and a driver signed off to HPDE3. You're right...the 3rd gen is going to handle different than your C4 but don't underestimate it's potential. We surprise Vette drivers quite often after they pass us down the straights then wonder why we're stuck to their rear bumper 5 turns later.

Looks like you've got a handle on the TT points issue but there are some very fast cars in TTA, ie, Porsche 996 & Corvette Z06's. Are you sure you want to compete with a 3rd gen in that class! If your plans are not to race wheel-to-wheel then build what you've got and go have fun. If you think at some point in the future that you want to race other cars and not just compete for times...then you should consider now what class that might be. I'd suggest looking at the CMC2 rules and build to that. Run HPDE3/4 then get your TT license. You can always build on that platform if you desire to spend more money.

Good luck,

Sidney

Thanks Sidney!

This is exactly why I put up an intro post stating what I have and am planning to do. I am continually floored at the wealth of information on this forum that it's members supply for everyone to learn from. I am very open to suggestions as I will willing admit my ignorance or inexperience on a given topic.

My good friend that I have been autoxing with for years is the one that pulled me into doing open tracks. He has done many open tracks over the years and been steading kickin butt in TTA with his 03' Z06 for the past couple of years. I am willing to run TTA knowing it's a very competitive class which is more the reason why I want to make for certain that I spend my money wisely on the things that will gain me the most for my buck. I love a good challenge and find myself rising to the challenge when there is good competition. I like the fact that in my region there isn't a lot of 3rd gen's running in the TT classes, I like to be a lil different.

I would love to race wheel-to-wheel! That has been my dream ever since I sat in my dad's 69' Corvette. Racing is in my blood! If the funds were plentiful I'd have no problem working my way to running in an actual race group and not just doing timetrials. I need to do more research into this as it may be something I can pull off. If nothing else, I just love being out there enjoying one hell of a thrill and the company of some good people whom I share this passion with.

Update.....

We finally got the car painted. It's starting to look like a reverse oreo. The interior is staying gutted(I like it better that way). I managed to find a 97 Z28 donor car for the T56 and associated clutch components needed for the tranny swap. Now the parts are starting to pile up. I've got new LCA's full heim, camber/caster plates, tranny crossmember, front T4 Baer brake kit, prop valve on order, Z06(oem) wheels(18x10.5s for all 4 corners), a rear end swap and a rear spoiler from Blaine FAB. The electrics are almost complete. Finished up wiring the cutoff switch and the new fuse block. Everything came out pretty clean! The rear end will get swapped when we do the entire brake system. I'm gonna try to get some pics posted. More updates to follow...

Here's a few pics of the progress so far:

Striped down before painting

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...ntstriping1.jpg

First Day after paint was cured

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction011.jpg

First nite fully assembled after paint was cured

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction003.jpg

New fuse block

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction002.jpg

Cutoff switch/ electric mirror plate

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction001.jpg

New wheels and brakes

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...ndbrakeshot.jpg

Misc shots

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction007.jpg

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...dbrakeshot2.jpg

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction004.jpg

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m542/J...truction006.jpg

Nice!

Thank you sir!

Jay, the car is looking good! I miss my old '89 Formula and that looks just enough like one....

The diagonal in the cage is supposed to be one piece and the harness bar is two pieces. It's "allowed" the way you have it, but it's not preferred. I doubt you'll be changing it now, but I figured I'd mention it because someone is probably going to do so at some point.

The only other concern I have is that I don't like "spade lugs" for fuse box connections. Good quality connectors help reduce problems (and it looks like you used some decent connectors). I really like a ring terminal and screw setup for high vibration environments (or I solder my wires to the lugs). Though that setup may never give you a moments trouble (and I hope it doesn't).

Keep up the good work!

Welcome

also thats the way it's done in aircraft. the ring terminals that is

Wow! Sharp lookin' ride! Reminds me of my white '89 Formula 350!

Thanks everybody!

Kevin, TSHACK- I never even thought about the spade terminals vibrating loose. I'm thinking I will solder the connectors onto the terminals and use a lil bit of heat shrink to make it a clean install.

I never thought twice about the cage diagonal until about 3 weeks ago when I was reading NASA's cage rules. I had the cage work done 5 years ago. I told the guy at the shop it needed to be to SCCA spec, beins thats who I was racing with at the time and he said no problem(mistake on my part for not double checking ). I was happy with the install with the welds being clean and the harness bar being located perfect for my seats. I am hoping it won't be a huge issue right now as I just wanna get back on track. But if it needs to be changed before I can race, I'll have it corrected and throw in some sub-frame connectors too!

Thank you guys for the advice, that's why I love this forum! Keep it coming

See as you are in Cali Alan Blaine can fix your cage up! Are you in NorCal or SoCal? If you are ever at Thunderhill let me know and I'll come up, I am local. We should schedule a track day together when my car is ready again!

Sounds good to me! I'm in the North Bay in Brentwood. You read my mind. I ordered up my spoiler from Alan and was gonna call him to find out about the SFC and the cage correction. I will definitely be running at Thunderhill. I usually run with NASA and NCRC. How long before your car is ready? I am hoping to have mine finished by years end. Where abouts are you at? I am guessing NorCal if your local to T-hill

Good deal, my car should be ready any time. I am near Davis and Woodland out in rural Yolo County. Near the I-505! 73 miles from T-Hill!

Lucky! Soon as mine is ready I'll let you know and we can make a plan. I'm a little more than 2 hrs away from T-hill.

Sounds great! It may be hard to get me before New Year's but you never know!