Has anyone else noticed that used aftermarket parts availabilty has gone up quite a bit? And has anyone noticed that parts sales seem to be way off?

I see longtube headers for sale and there are zero replies. OF course, in many cases, owners are asking 80-90% of retail. They must be smoking crack.

Camshafts and heads are in abundant supply ... but again, way over priced for used parts.

It appears that the mod market might be drying up a tad for this platform. Stands to reason ... it's been out of production for 2 1/2 years. I just find it interesting that parts are becoming more abundant, both retail and used, yet the costs are not coming down.

Interesting observations....

Stands to reason that as the last of the newer cars age, go out of warranty, etc., the market for modifications will mature to some degree, and eventually peak. I think that's why we've seen vendors scrambling to add other platforms to their menu of parts.

i just can't believe it's already been that long since the end of production....

It hasn't been 2.5 yrs. I think it was Sept 2002.

Out of production does not mean limited parts supply, look at Fox Mustangs. As they age, I suspect the fourthgen will take their place, and the LS1 cars will be like the '87-'92 Fox, as in preferred. Just my opinion.

No, in the 4th gen era we never sold close to what Mustangs did. That's why the Mustang is still in production. Well, that and GM way overpredicted what the F body would sell and built a business case around that volume.

the LT1 cars sold close to mustang numbers for a few years. I tend to agree with Chuck but the market for domestics is much smaller overall than in the early 90's. (when 5.0s where strong)

Parts have come down alot, they wont get to SBC/SBF prices because they started way too high and they wont hit those volumes. The interchange of LS1-LS2 is gonna be a large factor as well.

The F-bodies may not have sold as many cars, but I would wager that there are more fouthgens left than Fox Mustangs. Maybe it is just where I live.

Aftermarket parts availabilty, like most things, is directly related to supply and demand. If the economy continues to do well, chances are the demand will be strong for a long time.

I've always been surprised at the cost of aftermarket parts for the LS1's. Back when I had a 302 in my 88 Cougar XR-7, I was always envious of the parts costs for those GM guys with the 350's. Now those 302 prices look spectacular compared to LS1 parts. I realize development costs due to the new motor bump up the price, but with all the suppliers, I'm surprised at high prices stay. Perhaps I'm just getting too old and starting to say, "back in my day, I remember when...."

It's just where you live.

OK .. a year and a half ...

Chuck has it correct ... supply and demand.

Face it guys ... the supply is gone. The platform is dead, nothing to remotely replace it as far as parts compatibility goes.

Any aftermarket manufacturer would be nuts in this economy to spend precious R&D dollars on a platform that lasted for 4 years (LS1 F-Body).

Can we all agree that R&D on LT1 engines has all but ceased? Why would the LS1 be any different? And don't say Corvette, because those guys are in another stratosphere ...

I think it's insane the cost of aftermarket parts for an LS1 car (demand?). I think it's insane to pay near retail for used parts (supply?).

And all these used F-Body parts cropping up ... why are the owners selling? Platform change?

For a racecar or hobby car a 3rd gen F body looks mighty good to me. The body was very popular and was made for 10 model years. The engine was just a Gen I Chevy and can easily be carbureted if you want. It's probably the closest you get to a fairly modern GM chassis design with very cheap parts availability.

I am certain my days with my Firebird are numbered just because of the cost of preparing this thing. I keep on living under the illusion of saying, "Well, the car was paid for many years ago so it beats buying something else." In the mean time I keep on sinking more money into it. The car is a blast when Detroit weather lets me go on the track in it, but jeez, it's expensive. I look at a car like a Factory Five racer and always think twice about whether I have the right car. No Spec Miata for me thank you, but a kit car that I could get cheap powertrain parts for doesn't sound bad.

Does it seem that AFS auctions on ebay for the camarobird wheels is drying up? I see lots for Mustangs, and the odd corvette/camaro/firebird. Great, now that I have a pair of 17x11 polished wheels for a coffee table...

Seems to me there's a good bit of stuff on ebay from recyclers - maybe they're trying to squeeze that last bit out of the well before it runs dry?

But the number of retailers is still huge for aftermarket parts. have you counted the sheer number of sponsors at LS1tech.com recently? Its over 70. Anybody who can is making a buck or two selling LS1 parts these days. I think the saving grace is that the internals interchange 100% with the truck Vortec motors, which broadens the market.

The LS1 is still HOT HOT HOT in my opinion.

I won't argue with you the LT1 is sort of a stepchild now. All R&D went straight to the LS1 the day it came out...or so it seems.

The only significant LT1 products to arrive in the last few years are from companies that made their name in the LS1 market and finally got enough requests from LT1 guys to have some "version" of their own...like a lot of the longtube packages, etc.

I knew parts would be fewer for an F-Body than a mustang before I purchased the camaro in late '02. I'm a die hard pontiac fan, but couldnt pass up the price I paid for the camaro.

Part of the fun is modifying the car! Even when I day dream about purchasing a new car I immediately start to think about what improvements I would do after I drove the car off the showroom floor.

Relatively speaking, 4th gen F-bodies have many aftermarket parts available compared to more contemporary vehicles. Even first and second generation f-bodies still have new performance parts available.

The only used high performance parts that I regularly see overpriced are nitrous kits, LS6 intakes, and blowers. The demand is still very high for these parts as they appeal to the 1/4 mile and street race crowd.

Just rambling...

Pretty much, but luckily the LT1 shares quite a few parts with a Gen I SBC so there are no shortage of ways to build one. The only real limiting factor are the blocks. The motor was only made for 5yrs and only for a handful of cars. I can easily see rebuildable LT1 blocks getting pretty expensive in the next few years.

As for all the used parts showing up its just people moving on to other platforms. No one wants to drive an f-body anymore with all the other choices now available.

All the other choices?

Nothing has stepped in to fill the performance bang-for-the buck shoes of a stripper LS1 Z28, and Mustangs weren't designed to seat drivers that have shoulders.

Interesting thread!

I think that LS1 aftermarket parts costs still are relatively high due to lower overall production volume compared to Gen I SBC components. It is however, very odd that a discontinued vehicle commands such high aftermarket prices for its various bolt-on components. The ubiquitous header is perhaps a good item to compare and contrast. I paid roughly $240/$250 for a set of Hooker S/C headers for my 1979 Z back in 1988, and had them coated a few years later for $200. Today, even Hooker's own LS1 LT's cost over $400 UNcoated, and that's at the low end of the spectrum for exhaust parts. Other brands cost two to three times that, for roughly the same HP gain. That's one of the reasons why I don't have LT's - $900 for maybe 20-25 HP is too much dinero for such a small gain, IMO. I also don't think that inflation is the root cause of the overall price increases over the past several years, but I'm no economist.

However, it does appear that the aftermarket has upped ante by producing a better quality product, as many parts truly are now a "bolt-on." I think many new or newer companies (compared to the aftermarket companies that existed in the late 70's/early 80's) were started by people who were simply tired of bolt-ons not really being bolt-ons. And of course, you do get what you pay for. Quality construction, improved durability and reliability, all cost more. That same set of Hookers I bought for my 1979 Z were made in Mexico (pre-NAFTA no less), and I had several fitment problems, most notably the #1 pipe not clearing the #3 plug (I had angleplug heads) without dimpling the pipe, and until I got a Tilton mini-starter, I had massive header clearance problems with the OE starter. I'm not saying that all new LS1-based headers are a perfect fit, but I think most aftermarket manufacturers are building a better exhaust component now. My Flowmaster AT cat-back has been on the car since July 1999, and is still in good shape.

If GM doesn't revive the F-body somehow, someway, as a moderately low-cost V8/RWD platform, I am convinced they will lose a vast portion of the youth market for good (if they haven't already) and the trickle-down effect of that will hit the aftermarket very hard, perhaps ultimately causing jobs to be lost.

Yes, while bank for the buck they are still unbeatable that wasn't enough to save them while they were in production, and its still not enough now to keep people from moving on.

As hard as it may be for us accept not everyone wants a heavy car with a crappy interior based on a 20yr old platform. No matter how great the engine is the rest of the car was seriously dated.

Don't get me wrong. I love my car for what it is, but I am not blind to its shortcomings either.

what's dated ?

All I can think of is the floor pan

Absolutely. The f-bodies have always been flawed cars. While the interior isn't great, they are about the most comfortable car (for the driver) on the road under $30K IMHO. I looked at a lot of other cars before buying another Camaro, and the only thing close in comfort was a Grand Prix.

The real problem is women.

First of all, most don't like sitting on the floor - they prefer that high seating position with their legs folded under them that I find so uncomfortable. Second, they are not willing to live with the parking difficulties (invisible hood, mile long and 3 foot thick doors). Third, they usually don't have broad shoulders.

Some women actually like these cars, and a few even race them But many don't. And let's face it, while almost everyone on this board managed to buy a new or used f-body, many men are not going to be able to buy a new car that their wife doesn't like

Mustangs address many of the problems that women have with f-bodies. And for a younger guy buying his first new "real" (pony) car, the V8 that the wife DOES like is a pretty reasonable compromise. She might even want one too

GM never grasped that while the car doesn't need to be aimed at women specifically (men will still be a higher percentage of the buyers), the women have to APPROVE the purchase.

Personally, if GM just removed a foot or two of front overhang and shaved the doors down to about half their current thickness (and fixed the damn PCV oil problem), I think they'd have a car they could sell. Oh, and perhaps they should advertise it instead of staking EVERYTHING on the trucks

Sean, you hit the nail on the head, also, ever see a woman try to get out of a f-car while wearing a skirt there is a reason i take the audi when i have a female passanger.

When was the last time a commercial was centered on the f-body?

the last one i remeber was the LS1 Birdies, where it sucks the exoctic in through the ram-air scoops.

One argument I have heard is that it wasn't necessary to advertise because everyone already knows what a Cambird is. However, I'm fairly sure that most people realize Chevy makes trucks, too

The point of the advertising is not just brand awareness, it's primarily about image. To a lot of people, the image of the f-cars is 70's macho redneck and/or phallic symbol and/or adolescent. And I'm OK with that

But a lot of people aren't. Most of those people would probably never be weekend racers, but they do drive the garden-variety volume that makes a product successful.

Ironically, though, the real adolescent market has largely turned elsewhere.

I think that Rob Hoods explanation of the current parts available are the reasons why so many are selling used parts.

How many people do you think sold their BMR PHR and got something else 'JUST' from the post on the other board?
Or how many realized that they should have bought long tubes instead of short tubes?

Because of the quality of some of the aftermarket parts, people are willing to step up to something better (or just different).

Anyone notice that Fox Mustangs were kinda nice when new, then went into that crappy mullet mobile stage? Now I see nice examples of both stock and modified cars. These are enthusiast's cars, and those type cars stick around.

Did Chevrolet build more 4th gen Camaros than shoebox Chevies? Or Chevelles? Or 1st gen F-bodies. Those cars are still around. I expect these will be around awhile too.

Aside from interior, the F-body is still a pretty nice car. I wish I had the $ for another. A LS1 SS. Copletely stock except new shocks, brake pads, shifter, lid & filter, and GMMG exhaust.
You can still drive a Street Prepared car, but it really starts to not be much fun when the A/C comes out!

Jobs should not be lost in the aftermarket. Businesses must adapt to the changing market and I think the major ones are.

Did anyone happen to notice a recent headline that said GM made about a $150 profit per car last year in the US. They made about a $2100 profit selling a car in China however. Guess where that's heading? I fully expect my next engine project to require flights to China instead of Mexico.

Well, I'm heading for a major thread drift here, but for a short summary, we are a dying breed since we like RWD cars that are cheap fun.

I have to fully agree with Sean that addressing the car requirements of women was a major problem with the f-bods. That is saying something being a woman. I don't share their tastes in cars unless they are Belinda Endress or Chris Knight, so GM should not call me for any advice in this dept.

Going back to Mitch's original statement regarding used parts for sale, I think some times people can get a little too "proud" of their stuff, and of course, are trying to sell it for as much as they can. No fault in that - that's typical Business 101. However, if the market doesn't bear the price, then the price must come to the market - supply vs demand.

I really don't try to give away my used stuff when I sell it, but when I sell it, I want it GONE. It's no longer of any use to me. When I go to the swap meets, I really have to laugh some times at the prices people are asking. I will take a JEGS or Summit catalog along just to compare prices, and show them what I could buy the same thing for at a new price vs the "used" price.

Car parts just aren't going to appreciate, in the big scheme of things. Only the truly rare and unique parts will hold a certain value. I'm still kicking myself for not picking up a Smokey Yunick single four-barrel cross-ram intake (essentially a single carb top to the 68-69 Z cross-ram manifold) several years back for $80...

There are a lot of naive people who think that resale value is related to original cost.

Where it gets really comical is wheels and tires. How often do you see ads something like this:

I paid $2000 for the wheels and $800 for the tires. The rims are in perfect shape except for some curb rash on 3 of them. The tires still have 10~20% tread left (just hit the wear indicators a few months ago). Asking $2200 plus shipping.

I was going to try to work in some sort of comment about you enlightened few based on the St. Crispin's Day speech, but it never quite gelled ....

Agree again. All points

Geeze Rob your making me think there is someting wrong with me.

I'm not much of an agreeable person.


I'm not left, middle or right, just somewhere else..Usually

Sean,

Wow, now I know why I haven't looked as LS1.com etc in a very long time, they lack soul.

Henry V? "Oh, we band of brothers...." Sounds like a good start.



Regards
Steve

I was thinking more along the lines of "we happy few" ....

And you know ... some idiot will pay it.
I just don't understand it.

Another case in point is a mid 90s Z28. Folks are still asking 8-10K for them.

If someone offered me 10K for my '98, I'd be hard pressed to turn them down.

Well, once you swap in that LS6 long block it will be worth $16K

That said, (and I'm not sure which thread this comment belongs in) it would still be very tempting to go for the long block. Then either rebuild the LS1 at your leisure and to your specs and keep it as a spare or sell it. Or open it up and then decide. There WILL be surprises.

I will usually spend some extra money to avoid keeping my car out of service for a long time. However, extra money I spend for my convenience (or because I broke something) doesn't add to the value of the car.

Well, it depends on your frame of reference. It adds to the value of the car as you perceive it, because you spent that much money on it. It just doesn't add to the value of the car to a potential buyer. I think that's where a lot of these high asking prices come from.

Exactly!

Sean ... the "surprise" is what I dread and know I will find.

Even though I enjoy wrenching too, the surprises have a way of turning a "two weeks and a few cases" project into 6 months of downtime, and that can really cut into the fun factor.

And we have to consider the import market which is hudge and growing.... I'm in my early 40's so back in the day we were modifying Nova's, Camaros, chevelle's, mustangs...etc.... Cause it was fairly inexpensive and abundant.

Now the kids these days are into the imports cause it is fairly inexpensive and abundant.

It's insane how much people will PAY for used LT1 headers too.

Another case in point ...

I bought a set of new, 1 piece, 16x8, American Eagle, cast alloy wheels with a polished finish on them for my 2500HD for $425 delivered with chrome centercaps and gorilla lugs.

A similar set for an F-Body would be twice that, at least.