Trackbird and I were talking the other day about some rumors floating around about the "New" NASA HPDE rules. My question is: To run a NASA HPDE event in 2011, if my car has a cage that is ERW not DOM, but is within design specs, will I be able to run? Same thing with fuel cell, seats etc. Before I finish the cage, it might be good to know if there are rule changes......

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf



Section 15 is all about the safety gear and discusses fuel cells and cage construction.

I left the important part of what Mitch bolded - full cage goes to section 15, which says:

1501 - 2500 lbs.
1.500” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.500” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.

2501 - 3000 lbs.
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages 04/30/03)
*Note- Specifications listed for reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.

3001 - 4000 lbs.
1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.

Over 4000 lbs.
2.000” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.

No new rules - ERW was phased out before 2003.

fuel cell, rollbar padding and seats in a race prepped HPDE car follow the race rules. HPDE rules are largely for OEM stock vehicles - once a race item is installed, that item is teched to race rules.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Feb 9 2011, 07:51 PM

From the practical side, no NASA HPDE tech inspector has ever asked me to show proof that my cage was made from DOM material or that it was made from the requisite tubing wall thickness or that it was even made from steel.

Regions and tech inspectors vary as to how closely they scrutinize HPDE cars, but if it looks right you'll probably pass. If it doesn't look right, you may still pass. Whether that's a good thing or not is another topic. Of course NASA will allow vehicles without any safety equipment besides a helmet on the drivers pumpkin to run in open passing groups which is something I won't do...anymore. It just took one close call to convince me to put a cage in my TT car.

I work in a procedure laden environment and the operative word in that sentence Alan bolded is "should".

If it were mandatory, the word "shall" or "must" would be there. The term "should" suggests its highly recommended.

I agree w/ Mitch here. There is no requiremnt ot have a cage, so even a poorly designed or one that does not meet competition requirements is better than nothing. Will you get a logbook issued? Not likely, even for TT use. Can you run HPDE/TT? Sure.

A perfect example is the belts requirement. For HPDE, there is no requirement to have them, but if you do they do not require them to be current w/ regards to expiration date.

Bottom line ... you need to contact the regional tech inspector and ask.

Because it really does boil down to what that guy thinks, not us.

thanks for the input guys! If the budget allowed it, I would have called Alan and told him to send me a copy of Kevin's cage. But, kids and college loans don't allow it, and the car is not a full on race car. Thanks again for the input, especially about the cell. It makes sense. I'll carry on with what I have..... and drive it to the track as a spare parts car for Kevin's Teal Wonder (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We play in NASA's environment, and the word "should" has a special meaning, as of Feb 1 2011: bolding mine

28.1.13 Should vs. Shall
The word “should” is used throughout this rulebook; and in order to fully grasp its
meaning, the following explanations have been created. When the word “should”
is used, it can be taken to mean that something should be done in accordance
with this book, or the driver can expect the stewards to disallow track time, if they
catch the issue. The reason that it’s stated as “should,” is to add emphasis that
it’s really, and ultimately, the driver’s responsibility. Because Inspectors,
Instructors, Flaggers, and Officials in general, tend to be human, it is an assumed
risk of this activity that a mistake can be made. Therefore, the driver is ultimately
held responsible for his or her own safety.

Furthermore, the word “should” also makes an implication of fallibility and/or
corrects false expectations. For example, “the flagger should display a yellow
flag,” the yellow flag in question may not show because of 1) it relies on the
flagger’s judgment, and that can be subjective, and 2) the flagger is human and
can make a mistake. Therefore, if one is not willing to risk their safety because
they expect other people to be perfect, then they cannot participate in NASA.

To sum it up, the word “should” can be construed in the context of these
examples:

a) “The driver should have roll cage padding (if they expect to be let on
track).”
b) “The official should check for roll cage padding (implying that, even though
they do their best, the Inspectors can miss something).

The teal wonder will NEVER break!!!! (Besides, it's built like a freakin' tank anyway...lol).

Ok, maybe a parts car (or two) is a really good idea. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This I agree with. Jerry's new clarification validifies the tech guys broad powers, but we will (I will, anyway) exercise them with common sense. If Racerdad shows up Sat at Infineon for HPDE tech, and I know his cage is ERW, will I pass him? If in my judgement the cage is otherwize well made and doesn't present an undue hazard that didn't exist before it was installed, then yes, I'll be OK with HPDE. If he's running TT, now my comfort level is lower and I'd probably run it past Jerry. If he's trying to get a race logbook, no way - cage would need to be replaced.

If the cage is poorly made, has open stubs pointing at the driver, or causes an extreme obstacle to getting out of the car, for example, then I won't let them on track.

No such leeway on a fuel cell - a bad fuel cell is just as likely to cause a problem in a HPDE car as it is in a race car, no crash is necessary for some fuel cell failure modes.

HPDE has a specific exception in the CCR to the harness dating rules for race cars. HPDE has no exception for high density padding (I've pulled HPDE cars off grid with the soft crappy foam on their rollbars). HPDE has no exception for the seat backbrace rules. I've helped drivers install lots of backbraces and rollbar padding.

And I'd be glad to bend one up for you, but I can certainly understand a lack of budget. I do question the thrift of using ERW tubing instead of DOM - it does lock you out of racing in any RR sanction, and also from selling the car as a race car. It will always be an HPDE car and you'll always hope that the tech guy doesn't check it, and wonder what he'll do when/if he finds it is ERW. The difference in cost for ERW vs DOM is in the $100-200 range, in the context of the total expense the the car represents it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me to save up for DOM.

I had never seen 28.1.13 till now. Good info.

Alan,

When I met Racerdad some time ago (wow time flies), he had a car in the works using a cage kit from Jegs (roll bar kit) and he's got a drag racing background (a cage is a cage, right??? lol). So, he now has my white chassis that I bought off of the classifieds here and has the parts from the Jegs cage to go in the new chassis. That's how we got "here" and with an ERW cage. Now, there's no point putting DOM halo parts on it, but it's going to be an autocross car and occasional cruise in car for him and his son to play with and doing a full race DOM cage is pricy. At this point, we can build it, he can have fun with it (if they'll let him through tech, it might do the odd hpde day) and we can always cut out the cage and start over if it winds up in such a place that it becomes necessary.

I'd like to build another one like mine too. We learned a lot and would approach some things in different ways this time.

Kevin is right on. Kenny and I may run an open trackday/HPDE day if it passes tech, but it's more of a project to flog, break, fix and flog again. I have learned alot since I started, mainly the DOM vs ERW difference, albiet too late(drag racing is soooooo much more simple). The cage is more to protect Kenny if he gets upside down when (not if) he gets in oer his head. The original intent was to go 0-100-0 in less than 10 seconds, run 1.0 g on the skid pad, run 12.000 or better drag racing, and hang with a Z06 on the road course. Now I can add competitive Auto-xing to the list. One day, we'll build a W2W car with a Blaine Fab cage.
Based what I've learned, we'll use the stock tank(no cell), finish the cage with the ERW halo and add a bar above the door sill and the diagonal in the main hoop, harness bar and a door bar to tie the harness bar to the a-pillar bar. You guys have been a huge help......

I'm getting ready to start on the cage for my first gen car, I looked through the rule book, but could not find any reference to my question, so perhaps you guys can help. My car will be a street/track car. I want to make the cross bars in the main hoop removeable, is that allowed per the rules? Both NASA and SCCA. Second question is on the rear down bars, the rules state that the bars must be straight with no bends, is that the case? I've seen a lot of cars with rear bars that follow the roofline before bending down through the package tray. Third question, the front down bars, from the cowl to the front of the subframe, do they have to be 1 3/4? or would 1 5/8 be adequate?

I know, lots of questions, but you guys all have the answers! Thanks for any help.

PM me and I'll hook you up with the Great Lakes/Midwest Tech dude. Bill Collins is in Springfield, IL but hits most of the GL's events.

Sidney Franklin
Midwest Region
CMC2 #64

First, some of the usual risk management stuff:

For a car that will see street duty, I don't recommend a full cage - ie one that extends forward from the main hoop. The halo is just too close to the occupants head to be safe without helmets, even with proper high density padding.

A 4pt rollbar - ie main hoop and bracing rearward, can be safe in a street car for front seat occupants if it is positioned rearward enough from the front seatbacks, and is padded with high density padding, and is set up to limit rear extension of the front seatbacks if the seat hinge mechanism should fail.

The rear seat in a rollbar/cage equipped car should not be driven with people in the rear seat - the steel on the sides and front of the seat can cause severe injury in even a minor incident on the street without a helmet.

OK, that said, the harness bar and diagonal in the main hoop can be made removeable, typically for access to store stuff behind the front seats. Care must be taken that there are no stubs or tabs pointing at the front seat occupants when the bars are removed.

The bent rear backstays are an artifact of NHRA and street use to clear the rear seats, before some folks figured out that beating heads on steel tubing was a bad thing. The RR folks have acquired, and appreciate that knowledge. Others, not so much.

Cage tube dimensions, material and design are highly dependent on the class the car will run in. If it is going to be HPDE only then the rules are more flexible but I encourage anyone caging a car to think ahead to the future - is there the slightest chance you'll want to race competitively? Or, maybe sell the car to someone who will? Meeting NASA/SCCA race cage rules in the initial build leaves options open for the future.

Beyond the required cage elements, tube sizing is open. Extra bracing underhood need not meet the general cage rules. If designed to be in compression and not bending it can be much thinner wall than the rest of the cage.

Alan, can you expand on this? I'm having trouble visualizing the bolded part. Are you saying the crossbar shoud be setup to "catch" the seats if they fail, or to allow for the seats to lay flat as they would if the rollbar wasn't even there. If the latter, wouldn't the main hoop have to be really far back?

My dad has been rearended by someone who fell asleep. He said him and a coworker were at a light, and the next thing they knew they were staring at the ceiling (sidenote: do stock seats fail as part of their design to absorb some of the impact?).

The crossbar should prevent the seat from passing thru the plane of the main hoop, and prevent the occupants head from striking the rollbar. The seatback should have a padded head rest (this became std OEM practice in the 80's IIRC) that stays between the head and steel. It should do this from any position of the slider.

Tech's std test on a car equipped with an OEM seat and a rollbar:
-slide the seat all the way forward
-release the recline mechanism and tilt the seat all the way rearward
-if the seat headrest passes under the rollbar bracing, that is a fail - no track time for that car.
-if the seat headrest is stopped by the rollbar bracing, that is a pass, if the bar is padded properly with HD padding, and meets the rest of the inspection criteria.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Feb 17 2011, 08:43 PM