Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: trackbird May 22 2016, 02:37 AM

I got up at 2am and drug a trailer almost 700 miles today to bring home a 2002 Z28 convertible (6 speed manual). It's a virtual twin (other than a convertible instead of t tops) to my original 2002 that I bought new. I actually believe every option matches right down to the color. It came with piles of service records, a receipt for a new GM installed engine (15k miles/4 years ago) as well as new clutch (with the engine), new window regulators and all kinds of other stuff. The previous owners spent a fortune at the dealer with this car. It was a summer car at the house on lake Michigan. I don't think it's ever seen anything beyond some occasional rain. The steering column is tight and there's no major wear on the seats or steering wheel. It has a few small door dings and I think the paintless dent guys can remove those. Overall, it's a solid and clean car that should be lots of fun. It was also dead stock, not so much as a lid on it.

I'm planning to swap on some larger wheels, lower it a bit, stiffen it a bit, sway bars, exhaust and a "lid". I just want a fun driver to enjoy on nice days. I've actually never owned a convertible in my life, I've always had t tops or targa cars....this should be a new adventure.

I don't have many pics, but I'll add a few before I crawl off to bed.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 May 22 2016, 02:53 AM

NICE ! I've always preferred hard tops over drop tops, but any LS1, 6 speed car is a good time !

CONGRATS

~DaVe

Posted by: CrashTestDummy May 22 2016, 03:17 AM

Verts are nice. Keep an eye on the stitching on the top. Literally, one day fine, the next, popping at all the seams. If it sees any rain, check the rear quarters in the trunk for water. It's a common problem.

Otherwise, enjoy hammering the throttle with the top down, under an overpass.

Posted by: trackbird May 22 2016, 03:53 PM

Me too, that's why I've never owned one. I got my wife hooked on T tops/targa cars with the SOM SS I had and the '91 Corvette. She thought a convertible would be fun and I really didn't want one. I looked at cars all over the country and found that most people are "insane" ('98 SS with 117k for $14,700 and piles of others that were priced about the same). I finally told her "I give up, I'm not buying a car....at least not one of these and I can't find anything else that sounds fun".

I was previously emailing with the "dealer" about this vehicle and last Monday he sent a follow up email. I'd already decided I didn't care so I had nothing to lose and thought I'd play ball with him. I told him it was about $3k over my planned budget but maybe we could work it out. He took $1500 off, I double checked with my wife (that she liked the car) and told him I'd be there to see/get it. So....it followed me home.




The top looks new. The floor mats look new. Literally, other than a little bolster wear on the seat (minimal, but it's been "sat in") it looks quite close to new.

Water? I'll keep an eye out for it. I wasn't aware of that issue. Thanks!

Posted by: Steve91T May 22 2016, 07:19 PM

Very nice! I'm interested to hear if you notice any difference in the feel of the car, like chassis flex.

Posted by: trackbird May 22 2016, 08:37 PM

I'm anxious to get a chance to drive it some and get a feel for the convertible. The car was on consignment so they have to do the title work and send it my way before I can title it and drive it.

Last night I swung by the parts store for 5 quarts of Mobile 1 ATF for the transmission. Today I stopped by Jegs and picked up a shift knob (black Hurst style), a B&M shifter, a differential cover gasket and an SLP front license plate bracket. I also saved the SLP TCS disable module from a previous project (you can't buy them anymore) and I installed that last night.

Now I just have to get under it and change out the fluids while I wait for the paperwork.

Posted by: trackbird May 23 2016, 12:30 AM

I'm looking for wheels. I think I want charcoal (like I did on my last car), something tasteful. I'm looking for something that hasn't been "overdone" (I love ZR1's on these cars....but that's been going on for years). The car is really clean and completely original (it's a "time capsule" piece) and I'm trying to be tasteful and not screw it up or ruin it. I'm starting to lean towards these Forgestars:

http://www.forgestar.com/wheels/collection/rotary-forged-monoblock-series/f14/

Like this:

http://www.dv8motoring.com/s/cc_images/cache_2554480304.jpg?t=1328297177

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Wheels%20Cars/ForgeStar/Z06-18e.jpg.html (I know that's a Corvette...lol).

Then I'm left with the decision of 17x9.5's or 18x9.5's (275/40-17 or 275/35-18 tires). I'm worried that 17' tires seem to be slowly going away (or will be soon).

Thoughts?

Posted by: SuperMacGuy May 23 2016, 01:13 AM

Oh man you are going down that dirty road to hell called "just a few upgrades" ... haha!

Those wheels are super cool. I personally would stick with 17s. On tirerack I see even Michelin still has a size, and the F1GS which I heard were good can still be had. I like enough sidewall to absorb bumps. As a cruiser you'd want a little better ride than a 18/19 wheel, no?
As for lifespan on 275/40/17, who can say? Call Hoosier and talk to them just to get a read? That's hard to predict. People keep saying that, but if we keep buying 17s then they will still be made (self fulfilling prophecy?). <shrug>

Posted by: trackbird May 23 2016, 01:35 AM

Yea, we've all seen that road (and you guys well know that I have). This time I'm looking to keep things simple. Suspension is "simple" to me and I enjoy the work. So I'm not looking to remove the valve covers, just a basic "tune up".

I prefer a 17". I just wanted to make sure the "writing wasn't on the wall" about 17" tires....at least not yet.

Also, I've been talking to Ryan and the UMI crew and we're going to collaborate on this project. UMI has been building some really cool cars lately and I'm looking forward to working with them to tune up my new toy.

Yea, the mod list is:

STB (UMI)
SFC (weld in UMI)
Shocks (possibly UMI coil overs)
springs (possibly UMI coil overs)
PHB (UMI)
Sway bars (UMI)
Wheels/tires (Forgestar F14 wheels)
Shifter and knob (B&M)
SLP TCS disable module
SLP "lid"
SLP y pipe (if I can justify it, I fear it may drag on everything, I'll see how it sits when it's done)
Hooker cat back (possibly, my wife thinks it's a bit too loud)
Fresh fluids
Maybe C5 brakes (after I move up from the 16" wheels)
Paintless dent removal for a few small spots and a little paint touch up

I don't plan to change LCA's, they tend to impact ride more than I like. I actually won the SM2 championship in 2005 (OVR region SCCA) using factory LCA's in my car. I want to make it a fun to drive summer toy that could go to an autocross if I wish. Ryan and the UMI guys may change my mind on that, so I reserve the right to adjust that at a later date.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 May 23 2016, 05:13 AM

Love those wheels !

BUT I'd go with 18x10 's w/ 285's all around

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird May 23 2016, 12:53 PM

I guess I should add this link before it and all the pics go away...

This is where I got it, and I didn't pay that for it (I'm amazed they moved on the price, but I managed to get a decent amount off that price).

http://www.grautogallery.com/vehicles/3876/2002-chevrolet-camaro-z-28

Posted by: CrashTestDummy May 23 2016, 01:49 PM

The water issue may be just our car, and the fact that the top needs to be replaced. Hopefully, you'll be fine.

Those wheels look great! We have Vette knock-offs, and they look similar, and really make the car look nice.

We got our car to satisfy my wife's 'mid-life' crisis. She was looking for a convertible, and the 95 became available from a friend. I know our winter weather is a LOT milder than what you get, but the Z28 was my wife's 'nice weather' winter car. If it wasn't raining, the top was down, even in 30-degree weather. I guess I really need to get the top replaced so we can at least drive it again on those nice cold weather days, since it's not getting much attention on the for sale sites.

Posted by: slowTA May 23 2016, 05:04 PM

Dibs on the good stuff when you decide to part it!

Posted by: trackbird May 23 2016, 08:45 PM

Ouch....you guys aren't supposed to know me that well.... Ahh, who am I kidding, of course you do.

Posted by: UMI Performance May 24 2016, 03:37 PM

This car looks super clean. We are pretty excited to be part of this project.

Posted by: trackbird May 24 2016, 05:01 PM

Thanks Ryan! I'm really looking forward to it. It's nice to be back in a 4th gen and I think the convertible is going to be a fun change over what I'm used to. I haven't been shopping for 4th gen parts for a while so I was pleased to see how the UMI product line has expanded since I was last in the market (I had no idea you guys had sway bars among other things).

Posted by: Bud M May 24 2016, 06:18 PM

There's been so much argument about the (lack of) effectiveness of STBs on 4th gens. I'm kind of surprised to see this on your list. Having said that, I have one on mine.

Posted by: rocky May 24 2016, 06:23 PM

I would like to get that UMI coil over kit too. IF you go that route let us know what you think about it.

Posted by: trackbird May 24 2016, 08:14 PM

I've always felt like they removed some "cowl shake". I'm not worried about 5 lbs and it "can't hurt". I've added them to every car I've owned and I've always felt like the cars without them "wiggled' a bit more than the cars with them. Even if I only "feel better" about it, it's still not that much weight or money.



I'm still talking to Ryan/UMI, but I'm leaning towards trying it. You guys will know as soon as I do...or just a little bit after. And I'll certainly keep you guys in the loop.

Posted by: Steve91T May 24 2016, 11:12 PM

I've read on here that the STB does nothing for handling. I'm telling you I feel a surprisingly big difference in steering response. I've driven my car back to back with and without it many times and the difference is so big that I always nearly run off the road to the inside after installing it again.

I would imagine that a convertible will need it even more than a T-top car. Plus it makes the engine compartment look cool.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy May 25 2016, 01:56 AM

Our 95 Z vert has amazingly little cowl shake, and it has SFCs and a STB. I can only think they do help some in that aspect.

Posted by: Bud M May 25 2016, 02:49 AM

Agreed on the steering response comment.

Posted by: trackbird May 25 2016, 10:59 AM

You might be able to generate the same skidpad numbers and you can possibly run an autocross course just as quickly without the STB. However, I feel that it helps the "feel" of the car. The car may not be faster or corner any harder, but it seems to "refine" the driving experience to some degree. And for that reason alone, I'll keep putting them on cars.

Posted by: trackbird May 25 2016, 02:16 PM

Parts are starting to arrive (now if the title would just get here). The shifter arrived from Jegs yesterday as well as an SLP front license plate bracket, diff cover gasket and a skip shift eliminator (it was all shipped from the warehouse) and I found that Summit Racing still had one of the black Hurst 6 speed shift knobs (Hurst shows that they have discontinued those and now only sell the white version) so I ordered that and an SLP "lid". Tonight is my last night of welding class (Advanced TIG) and then I'm going to try to get in the garage and get started on some of the basics. I'm also waiting for an order from UMI to arrive, then I can break out the welder and start the fun stuff!

As I make changes, my wife is going to be test driving the car. The goal is to explain each modification and let her learn the real world effects (chassis stiffness, if it makes noises, etc) of each change. She's been through the BMW performance driving school (when she worked for BMW), so she's not exactly new to performance cars and driving. I think this is going to be fun.

Posted by: mitchntx May 25 2016, 05:50 PM

Awesome car ...

You were looking at new. What made you decide on a "vintage" camaro?

Posted by: trackbird May 25 2016, 06:10 PM

Other than sitting in a new one....I was trying not to get rid of my truck. I just expected that I was going to "want" a new one (they are pretty quick and I don't have to touch anything but maybe some suspension). I had family in town recently and the crew cab does a great job of hauling them around town....sadly it's likely one of my more practical decisions.

Honestly I gave up on buying another 4th gen due to the insane prices. I told my wife "I quit". And she liked this convertible (I didn't really want one) and the salesman emailed me back. It seemed pretty reasonable for the condition and I figured it's sorta the devil I know....

Based on current prices, I should be able to keep it a year and ask double what I paid for it.....

There's still a small part of me that feels that I should preserve it...just as it is. It's like when you go to a car show and see an original 66 mustang that's dead stock right down to the skinny little bias ply tires. You know it's not fast, but you have to respect the fact that you are actually seeing one as it actually existed from the factory. It's really a time capsule car, stock right down to the air lid and paper filter. I'm a bit shocked at how utterly original it is.

Posted by: nape May 26 2016, 12:22 AM

I thought the same thing until I found this "gem". 167k miles, both window motors burned out, both window tracks shot, exhaust held on by baby C-clamps instead of bolts, random ghetto stereo wiring, 2 sets of LS1 badges (in case you didn't know), and a cylinder with no compression. At least it has a T56. Pretty sure it's going to be a drive train donor for Tragically Teal.



Doubt your time capsule will need any parts, but if you need something let me know.

Posted by: trackbird May 26 2016, 10:49 AM

I ran into a few 175k mile cars for $3995 (they are out there...and they were 6 speeds). I found a pretty nice '98 SS (in NBM...which I like AND an ebony interior instead of saddle/tan) with 95k on it for $8995. The dealer put it on a lift and sent me pics and I was ready to go buy it when I realized it was a hardtop car (no T tops). Gotta have t tops, targa or a convertible for summer enjoyment. That was the "last" car I was looking at, and I think it's still out there (but I'm not sure).

Tragically teal is back on track? Or on a track at all? That's awesome! I actually told my wife that in hindsight, I should have kept that car and then gone looking for this convertible (or something). I tried to "save" the engine and build a street car (using a Corvette) and for all the money and headaches, I'd have been better off owning the teal terror AND something like this Z28....and it would have been cheaper. Oh well.

Speaking of which, I still have an engine in my garage (from the Camaro/Corvette). Splayed main cap small block. It's looking for a good home! I need the space and it doesn't fit anything I own (though my wife really wants a '69 Camaro....so.....).

If I stumble into anything, I'll give you a yell.

This car doesn't even have any scratches on the lower air dam, I don't think the plastic has ever drug the ground (the radiator air deflector up under the body). It's almost scary under there.

Posted by: nape May 27 2016, 01:40 PM

Getting married, buying a house, and having a son put it on the back burner for a while, but it's coming out of mothballs soon. CMC is the largest pony car class in the Great Lakes region these days. So, I'm headed that way.

I saw your text about the engine, but I was prepping for Road America and forgot about it. Send me the info and your asking price. I'm probably not in the market unless I blow up the little 305 that could, but you never know.



That's crazy. Sounds like a museum piece, but what's the fun in that?

Posted by: trackbird May 27 2016, 02:32 PM

That has been my dilemma. I feel like I should rub it with a diaper and preserve it. It may be the last surviving unicorn. But, I think I'll have more fun having fun with it. Everything I do can be removed and "put back" with the exception of welding in subframe connectors....and what convertible doesn't need subframe connectors?

Posted by: UMI Performance May 27 2016, 02:35 PM

We've been hitting the 4th gen market hard the past few years, it's been very good to us and really the vehicle we started with. Getting more into autocross and now more and more road course has really pushed us to enhance our products and develop new products. As you guys already know, a season of racing really shows you weak points on a car and what needs changed or repaired. A road course really really shows this as well, we've been hitting a few different courses each year.

We are really excited about the new coilovers, I love driving on them and really feel we have a great new product.

Posted by: trackbird May 27 2016, 03:31 PM

I've been looking at those more and more and I'm looking forward to trying them. I like learning new things and I've done Koni's and springs in the past. I'm anxious to report on these once I get everything else done and get to the "springs/shocks and wheels" portion of the project. It looks like a pretty nice kit and it appears to be extremely "complete".

Posted by: JimMueller May 27 2016, 04:20 PM

If you start selling parts off that NBM Camaro, I might be interested in a few items

Posted by: trackbird May 27 2016, 06:25 PM

The UPS man brought 3 of my 4 boxes from UMI today. I'm hoping the last one wanders in today, if not I'm sure they'll get it here soon. It's like Christmas in May!

And the parts passed their cat scan with flying colors!

Posted by: CrashTestDummy May 27 2016, 06:44 PM

So I'm not the only one with a home-office Supervisor!

Posted by: bubba353z May 28 2016, 02:13 AM

How's my Petey doing? Been too long since I've seen him.

Posted by: mitchntx May 28 2016, 06:53 AM

Is that the devil cat?

Posted by: trackbird May 28 2016, 01:42 PM

He's pretty rotten, so nothing has changed. We need to catch up soon. Maybe this weekend?



Nope, that's Pete. You are friends with Midnight. I took Midnight to live with my ex. Trying to concentrate the evil in one place far away from me.

Posted by: bubba353z May 28 2016, 08:22 PM

Got to see the Z in person today - it is truly an outstanding looking car.

Definitely well bought!

Posted by: mitchntx May 29 2016, 12:28 PM

LOL ... I still have the Christmas card from Midnight.

Midnight and Chester the mouse were FRRAX classics.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy May 29 2016, 02:23 PM

Chester, especially. Cats, you expect some attitude, but that mouse?!?

Posted by: trackbird May 29 2016, 05:04 PM

Yea. That was one of the best threads on here. 😂😂😂

Posted by: 79T/A May 29 2016, 09:53 PM

Nice car, good mods planned. I drove a low mileage, rattle free LS1 car this weekend that has similar modifications. It was really a pleasure to drive. Went home and looked at my gutted, rod-end-everything, solid motor mount turd and shook my head. Forgot how nice a 4th gen could be, I sure as hell ruined mine.

Posted by: Steve91T May 29 2016, 11:35 PM

That thread was before my time. One of you guys dug it up a few years ago and I got to read it. I've never laughed so hard. That was great.

Posted by: trackbird May 30 2016, 12:26 AM

My goal is to avoid spoiling the car. I really want to make it better and not worse, or that's my goal.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Jun 1 2016, 06:14 AM

Mine has gotten a little to "race car" lately ... I think it is mainly the rod ended rear LCA's clunking and rattling over EVERYTHING !

Has anyone tried a rod end at the axle side and a poly bushing on the car side ? (replace the car side with these: https://hotpart.com/product/panhard-rod-forged-poly-rod-end/) ???

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird Jun 1 2016, 11:20 AM

Good rod ends make a huge difference. The best ones I ever used were made by "FK". They were a properly lined 3 piece design (as I remember) and they were quiet and stayed quiet for a long time. Noise is what prompted me to try the roto joint PHB. I've never had much noise out of heim joints on a PHB, but this was a good excuse to try something new.

Last night I got lots of work done. I installed the SLP "lid" and had to use a heat gun to get the MAF to fit. It seems that quality control has dropped considerably on the old 4th gen parts (and/or the molds are wearing out). They used to fit a lot better than they do now. SLP has also changed the hose that they include for 2001/2002 cars. It used to be a molded hose, now it's a straight section (that's not all that straight) and a couple 90 degree elbows and a "straight splice". If you put the straight splice in the end of the factory hose, you can trim it so that a 90 degree fitting is inline with the 90 degree fitting that exits the airbox. I'm sure this is all in the instructions that SLP has now moved online....but I didn't have a computer in the garage....and....it's a LID....I've installed about a dozen of these over the years. lol.

The B&M shifter went in as well as a new Hurst 6 speed ball (black). The black version has been discontinued by Hurst, but Summit Racing had one. So, I grabbed it. I've run that shifter ball in all of my cars and I hated to change now. The only one they still carry is the white version. If you want one, you should hurry.

The UMI strut tower brace dropped right in. It's a well made piece, it arrived packaged well and with the needed hardware and instructions. It's a strut tower brace, I've likely installed a dozen of these too, but the UMI version is very nice and uses nice thick mounting bases with slots that give plenty of adjustment without making the base too flexible (I think it was the SLP version that had really thin plates with really long slots in it that just seemed underbuilt). They included a couple UMI decals in the box. That's good thinking because guys love stickers. lol.

The skip shift delete connectors were installed. I've never had to do this. My 2002 Z28 (that I bought new) never had working skip shift. The light came on, but it never worked. Right from the showroom floor it didn't work. I have no idea why. This is actually the first car I've ever driven with a functioning skip shift....well, it used to be functioning. lol.

I added the SLP front license plate bracket. I'm guessing the factory brackets are all long gone and this car came from out of state. Ohio requires a front tag and they will ALWAYS look at the nose of a Camaro or Corvette to see if you actually have a plate on it. So, I put a plate on it. I don't love the look of the SLP bracket, but I like that it can be removed without leaving holes in the nose.

When I cleaned out the center console I found the oil change label showing 10/15 or 61k miles as the next oil change. Since the car has 58k on it, I'm guessing that makes the oil change about a year old. Since I'm not really 100% sure of that (I wasn't there), I changed it. It now has fresh synthetic oil and a K&N oil filter.

I still need to get under there and install and weld the subframe connectors on, install the PHB and change out the rest of the fluids. After a couple hours playing in the hot garage last night I decided it would be more fun driving it instead of working on it. My wife passed me as I was on the way out of the neighborhood so I went back and picked her up and we put about 50 miles on it while enjoying a perfect evening. This convertible thing might not be so bad after all.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 2 2016, 12:38 AM

I've finally driven it enough to really start to feel the difference between the T top cars and the convertible. This car is fairly flexible, going into parking lots and up angles ramps you feel it twist and squeak. Adding the STB settled down the steering wheel so it doesn't seem to move around as much over bumps. I'll finish up the chassis work soon and then we can see what kind of difference that makes. While I'm at it I should have some UMI sway bars arriving with the upgraded CNC aluminum brackets. These things look like art and I'm anxious to see them in person. I'm a sucker for finely CNC machined aluminum. And I used to break the brackets on my 3rd gens, the 4th gens never gave me much of an issue, but I'll gladly test them and report back to you guys. While I'm trying new things....(I may have to get a set of upgraded front swaybar mounts from Alan Blaine to go with them).

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_114&products_id=465

That will leave the wheels and coil overs and I should be wrapping it up. I was going to try to kill off most of the current tires (I hate to waste good rubber, I'm cheap, what can I say?) before doing the wheels. I'll likely do the wheels and coil overs together, but I might get to the coil overs before the tires are dead. We'll see how it goes. And then I'm considering a front brake upgrade...just because. (And I still have to talk my wife into letting me change the exhaust....lol).

Posted by: trackbird Jun 2 2016, 04:42 PM

I had to hold up on the modifications until my friend got to drive it for an article. Here's the article.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a29387/fourth-gen-camaro-was-the-best-camaro/

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Jun 2 2016, 07:45 PM

Nice article ! ... 5th genners might be mad

Posted by: trackbird Jun 2 2016, 09:17 PM

Based on the facebook comments, lots of people were mad.

That's ok. It's an interesting piece of history for those who care about such history. If you don't like the cars...that's ok too.

Jack has a good point. If the next gen car had actually been developed and built on the more aerodynamic base of the 4th gen and using the advances in drivetrain technology (hp and such) that we saw in the Corvette, it could have been quite a car.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 3 2016, 01:48 AM

Indeed. Haters are going to be haters, though. In a similar vein, imagine the third Gen updated to today's tech. We let folks drive our Firebird, or B4C, and almost always, the first word they have is 'I forgot just how well the 3rd Gen turns in'.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 3 2016, 10:42 AM

I LOVE third gens. Honestly, I was kinda looking for one. Unfortunately my wife seriously dislikes them (I owned the Teal Terror while we were together, she even helped with the cage). And people wanted $10k for a somewhat decent one (with a cracked dash pad....of course). I'd love another '89 Formula like the one I had years ago or maybe a '90 IROC. Take the 350 car and do a 6 speed swap (I've done a few already) and enjoy it. Though I don't know if you can find a manual transmission center console plate these days..... The Teal Terror was a riot on an autocross course. You could drive that car as far sideways as you wanted and still gather it back up instantly. It took Racerdad916 most of 2 seasons of autocrossing it to finally manage to spin it. And all of this was on cheap street tires. Did I mention that I love those cars?

Posted by: trackbird Jun 10 2016, 02:01 AM

I just returned home from putting roughly 1000 miles on the car over a long weekend. The slightly warped rotor didn't stay slightly warped for long. It was rather unpleasant on the 8% grades in the mountains. Left unchecked, the car would coast up to nearly 100 mph, touching the brakes felt like it was going to shake the wheels off. Decisions, decisions.... It's "floaty" and a bit scary through the twisty mountain passes. It really doesn't inspire confidence. Honestly, it rides more like a 1977 Eldorado than a performance/GT car. The original shocks were crap when they were new, now they are pretty well wasted. The sway bars do what they can, but usually the car hits the bump stops at some angle (due to body roll) and then waffles on the rebound since the shocks are powerless to stop it. It's been a long time since I've driven a stock one, much less a stock one that wasn't brand new.

Today I added an iPod adapter and disconnected the CD changer. That really helped things seem "normal" again. lol. Now I can just listen to music and not have to pick 12 cds that I'm going to get sick of entirely too soon.

And I installed front rotors by Centric and Stoptech street pads on all 4 corners. I didn't know that Stoptech made/sold replacement street pads (maybe they don't make them?) and I've never tried them. But I figured it was a good time to try something new. I'll report back once I get them bedded and working. Also, I think I actually removed the original factory pads and rotors today. The rotors had GM part numbers in them, but they also had the retaining clips on the studs....and NOBODY puts those back on (do they?). Inside the Stoptech pads box there was an interesting note that said "Stoptech is the performance division of Centric parts". I had no clue.

UMI swaybars are on the way and I think I'm going to pick up a TA Performance rear end cover (I'm changing the fluid anyway, and they are far easier to fill and drain the next time). I'm not completely sure they really help much beyond that, but I think I'll try another one. I was running behind today and didn't get to the PHB or SFCs. I think I'm going to wait for the swaybars and do it all when it's up in the air and level. And I still need to run by the Interstate battery dealer and pick up a battery. This one indicates that it was purchased in 2009. At 7 years old, I think I'll grab a fresh one. Seems like it's only a matter of time.

And I finally drove it with the top up. With the top up I can hear the tires roaring (or the bearings). I was trying to decide if the noise was bearings or tires all through my trip this weekend. After removing the wheels today I'm quite sure it's tires. The outer tread blocks are all feathered and uneven and all the tires have more rubber on the inside than the outside. It's been burning the outside edges off the fronts (it tracks straight, but the alignment seems a bit questionable). So, 17" tires and wheels are moving up the list of important things. But I don't want to put tires on it without shocks or align it until the shocks are done. I'll nurse it along while wasting the last of these tires, but I'm likely moving up my schedule to order the UMI coilover kit and some wheels a bit.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 10 2016, 02:33 AM

Those retainers are such a PITA!! But once they finally come off, they go on, and come off again fairly-easily. No reason to worry about the retainers again, though, once you are downstream the assembly line.

Posted by: Ojustracing Jun 10 2016, 02:43 AM

Actually had the car owner buy them from GM for his corvette. I asked him why he uses them? to hold the rotor from falling off!!!!! I used a lug nut turned around, he was thoroughly impressed with that!!!!!

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 10 2016, 01:34 PM

While I've never gone out to buy any from GM, if I can get them off without peeling them off with a pair of Vise Grips, I will usually reinstall them after doing any brake/rotor work.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 10 2016, 01:46 PM

I took needle nose pliers and straightened all the little blades. Then they pull right off. They are useless after that, but I find them to be mostly useless anyway. They landed in the trash can with the old pads and old brake hardware. All the pads were down to about 1/4 of the material, so I don't feel too bad replacing them all.

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 10 2016, 11:15 PM

Some people over on bobistheoilguy.com SWEAR BY those Stop Tech street pads, and rate them FAR ABOVE the Hawk HPS/HP+/5.0s.

Most of them do not know from Carbotech/G-Loc, so no comparisons to their streetable pads.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 11 2016, 08:13 PM

So far I like the feel of the Stoptech pads. I'm still wearing in the rotors (I'm almost done seeing the cross hatch pattern from machining, but it's not completely gone yet). Even while wearing in the rotors they don't seem to be making any significant amount of dust...so far. As a street pad, I think I like them. I wonder how they will do at an autocross. I suspect we'll take this car out for a few events once I get it done.

Today I picked up the TA performance rear end girdle and swung by the interstate battery dealer. That takes care of a few more things.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 12 2016, 02:26 AM

You better,you better,you bet!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 16 2016, 12:32 AM

The UMI swaybars showed up today. They look very nice. I'll get some pics when I get time to get them on the car. They came with bushings and hardware and I'm looking forward to trying them out. I also received a set of the UMI CNC machined aluminum swaybar brackets and bushings. They are likely the prettiest swaybar bushings I've ever had my hands on....really nice stuff. I also received a box full of factory service manuals. The last set I had were green and came in 3 volumes. Now they are purple and it's a 5 book set. They also cost a lot more than they used to....but at least I have another set of them.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 16 2016, 01:24 PM

Mmm, machined sway bar brackets!!

Yeah, it's amazing how the size and number of volumes the FSMs have grown to these days. The FSM for our '02 GMC and '10 Tahoe are 600+-page 5-volume sets. The set for the '12 Caprice is only 3 volumes, though. Not sure what's up with that, it's not like the vehicle is any simpler than the others. Perhaps it's the number of models supported by the manuals that adds to the volumes. The Caprice FSM is just for the left-hand-drive M Body.

Funny how they've grown from a single ~400-page volume like what we have for our 68 Cadillac (which includes directions to _rebuild_ the carburetor, distributor, alternator, A/C compressor, etc.) to what we have now (where everything is _replaced_ if it's failed).

Posted by: Ojustracing Jun 16 2016, 01:34 PM

If you need any GM Info let me know!!!! Those brackets are kinda Purdy!!!!!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 16 2016, 01:42 PM

Thanks! Yea, they are really nice looking brackets. Likely the prettiest ones I've ever laid my hand on. I"m anxious to get under the car and get moving. I have wheels on the way (SS 10 spokes, it lets me get rid of the cupped 16's without buying tires I won't use) and I'm looking at pushing up the time frame for ordering the coil over kit. If I can work that out, I'll just do all the work at once. "Poof", new car in a weekend.

I had factory service manuals for a 2001 that I bought from Helm. They were three green books (which is what I got for my 1991 Corvette). I don't know why they broke these up into smaller portions. All the info appears to be there, but I didn't expect different books. I really wanted the factory manual in case I have issues with the convertible top. I can fix about anything else, but I've never looked at the actuators for the top. I know there's a hydraulic pump in the back and it has a valve on it (I'm guessing that's for manual operation, but I need to do some reading).

I'm really excited about the parts from UMI. I've been away from the Fbody platform for a while and I hadn't been paying much attention. While I was away, UMI got super serious about building quality parts. They had good stuff when I was last playing with these cars, but they've added lots of parts and everything I've seen is really high quality, well built stuff. I'm anxious to get my hands on the coil overs. They look niiiiiice. I'll post a bunch of pics soon, I just have to get time to get out to the garage and fire up the air compressor.

Posted by: Ojustracing Jun 16 2016, 01:55 PM

Kevin

If you need anything not in the book let me know.

I'm really tempted to get back into something. I'm just coming off a 50 day strike and the funds are limited. Why cant I ever find something the correct color. It such a easier sale if the wife likes the color!!!!! or I trained her enough that only a hardtop will do!! She will call me out on it!!! AHAHAHAHAHAH

John

Posted by: trackbird Jun 16 2016, 02:50 PM

Thanks John!

I forgot about you being wrapped up in that strike. Hope you can get caught back up relatively quickly.

My wife learned how cool t top and targa cars are and agreed with me that I missed having a summer car. I still didn't mean to buy a convertible. It wasn't my plan. But this car was sooooo clean, I had to bring it home. And secretly, I want to be EugenioSS.... (I told Eugenio I was going to be his poor American cousin when I bought the car....his is an SS and I only got a Z28).

Posted by: trackbird Jun 19 2016, 05:21 AM

I finally got out to the garage to get a little work done. I actually spent way more time on this today than I meant to, but it was a beautiful day to be outside, so I'm not complaining. I got the SFCs on the car first. I just bolted them on for now, I'll deal with welding them in later. It's pretty simple, just hang the rear mount on the LCA bolt, swing into place and bolt to the metal bar with the two threaded holes in it. Unfortunately, my car didn't want to cooperate and I wound up grinding the hole just a touch to get the bolts in. There was a layer of sheet metal that was covering the edge of the bolt hole. Once I opened that up, I decided that the job would be easier with guide bolts. My wife collected a couple bolts at tractor supply and I cut the heads off and threaded them into the "bar". Once I had them in place, I removed one and inserted the bolt, after it was slightly snug, I swapped the other one for the remaining bolt. This turned a half hour of cussing into about 5 minutes of work. Reinstall the center support and torque the rear LCA's once the suspension is loaded. These are the UMI SFCs for convertibles. There's a lot more bracing under these cars than I'm used to seeing and the SFCs have to work around that.

The swaybars and the beautiful machined aluminum brackets went on. The UMI bars are very well made, they fit nice and the powdercoating job is as good or better than any swaybars I've ever used. They really did a nice job on them. The bars are 35/22 hollow bars. I usually run a solid front, but I keep reminding myself "it's a convertible". We'll see how I like it when it's all done. A quick test drive confirmed that it no longer drags the door handles around a corner. Ahh....much better (the front bar and brackets were installed too, by then I was getting tired and it was late, so I didn't get any pics, I did have to modify the metal "bracket" that protects a hose on the drivers side frame mount because it wasn't going to work with the new aluminum mounts, I just trimmed the ear off of the bracket, touched it up with paint and reinstalled it).

The TA performance (Jeg's) 10 bolt girdle went on and a fresh load of Mobile 1 went in the diff. I figure it can't hurt and it's certainly easier to fill (and drain).

The rotojoint PHB dropped right in. I've always run rod ends (heim joints), but in an effort to avoid noise, vibration and general "clunkiness" (remember, I have to keep this project "wife friendly", she's been worried that I'm going to "ruin" the car....I'm trying hard not to...and everything I've done can be put back stock at this point....except trimming the one sheild in the front for the swaybar) I'm trying something new. The roto joints are pretty interesting looking and the tig welding on them is nicely done. I didn't hear any new noises on my quick test drive, so far so good.

The two bolts are what I used to line up the internal bracket on the SFCs. Once I tried these, the job went very quickly. No more poking and prodding with a screwdriver and a dental pick. Just line them up and swap on the bolts. If I ever install another set of bolt on connectors, I'll do the same trick. It made the job simple.

I'm getting old and slow, it took me far longer to get this done today than I expected. However, it is done and the car feels much better. There is a note in the UMI SFC paperwork saying "if you hear a clunk in the rear, tighten the LCA mount to 90-100 ft lbs instead of 72". I did hear a bit of a clunk and I'll run the bolts down a bit more tomorrow. I'm guessing there's still a slight gap between the SFC mount that goes over the LCA mount and the factory sheet metal of the LCA mount. These cars have some pretty large variances in the chassis and the sizes of parts, so my car may be a little on the "small" side. I tightened it with two 3/4" box end wrenches and I may not have it tight enough. It's tight, but it may not be at the 72 ft lbs. I'll take the blame for that one since I was lazy and assumed I had it tight enough.

I received the new to me SS wheels (10 spokes) from Tony on Friday. I cleaned them up today and decided to just take them to the wheel refinishing place instead of running them a while. The wheels are in pretty good shape for "track wheels" and I bought them knowing I was going to have them refinished and painted charcoal, so I'm going to drop them off sometime next week and have them fixed up. I need to order a set of 275/40-17's to go on them and I guess I now have some 255/40-17 Rival tires for sale (local pickup in Columbus only). The SS wheels are going to delay the Forgestars, but they saved me some cash and I don't feel bad ordering the coil over kit now. The 16" tires are cupped and really noisy with the top up. I'm not buying new 16" tires and I need shocks before buying new 17's (and wheels...which I now have). So this seemed like a good plan to keep things moving along.

I'm going to order the UMI coilover kit Monday. I'm looking forward to trying them out and I know a few people here were curious about them. I'll try to take lots of pics and post the install information and driving impressions. Then I'm going to have to get a fresh helmet and hit at least one local autocross event.

And a huge thank you to "Bubba353z" who came over today and was a HUGE help with all of this work. We also bled the brakes and installed fresh ATE Superblue fluid (nobody tell the DOT!!!!).

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 19 2016, 03:21 PM

So how's that 'instant new car' now? I'm planning that for our Caprice. There's a huge pile of parts in the corner of the shop, just waiting for a long weekend to get to it.

The 4th Gen convertible mechanisms are pretty reliable. The only issues we've had with ours are with the 'bow links'. Those thin metal rods on the sides up front. The plastic 'rod ends' tend to break, and we've actually bent one of ours, somehow. They seem to be almost year-specific, or at least there are a couple of iterations of them, maybe LT-car andLS-car specific?

Hawks Third Gen does list them, I'm not certain what years they say theirs fit, but they do have them. Suffice to say, if you run across your year vert in a JY, and they're there, grab them!

The windshield latches can be an issue if you are not parked level, it's amazing how much these cars twist, even with SFCs. Just something to remember when parking with the top down.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 19 2016, 04:19 PM

It's much better, much much better. And I got down beside it with an impact gun (socket and impact swivel) and a box end wrench and "leaned" on the front LCA bolts a little bit. No more clunk. So that seems to be fixed.

That's good news on the top mechanism. I had no idea what to expect. There really aren't too many of the convertibles around (from what I've seen). I bought a pair of spare ebony seat belt guides for the front seat. When one broke (it had been glued) I ordered two, then I bought a spare for that one. That should hold me for a while. Parts seem to be drying up for these cars. It's really strange to me since I bought one new when the aftermarket was in full swing. I guess I'm getting old faster than I think.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 20 2016, 05:22 PM

Well, these things are starting to be eligible for antique status in some states. I was surprised at the odd stuff that IS still available. I had to replace a battery in our Z recently (10-year old, it's our third battery we've lost while using Battery Tenders in the shop. That's third in about 25 years across no less than 10 vehicles!!). Anyway, I discovered that the front hold down for the battery was broken. It's part of the coolant reservoir, by the way. I started looking around, and discovered I could get one from Hawks. They also had that terminal housing (you know, that red oval thingy on the fender by the battery that always has it's top missing?). So I updated those parts and have a battery that stays in place now (not that it was going anywhere in there), and a new terminal cover.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 20 2016, 05:49 PM

I got to chat with Jack at an event a couple days after he wrote that. It basically reinforced the fact I don't have much interest in 4th gens as street cars any more.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 20 2016, 06:56 PM

It's all in what you like. they have some weaknesses (actually, they are terrible in stock form), but we already know what they are (with me it's "the devil you know"). This one is well on the way to being "fixed". It's a reasonably quick "driver" that is in desperate need of some shocks. Once I get the shocks and springs on it and a fresh alignment, it will be as happy going to the drive in as it is at an autocross. It's a little heavier and more flexible than the coupes, but it will go where I point it. And no clunks or rattles. Honestly, it should have come from the factory this way. Installing all of the parts is a lot more work than I remember (I was much younger the last time), but it's not bad, it's a weekend of work and a small pile of parts from being a pretty decent way to enjoy nice weather.

On the other hand, I'm not going to try to talk you into buying one to drive on the street (and there are a lot of overpriced cars out there that are BEAT, so you may not find you would actually want to drive anyway). When I'm done with this car, I'll have similar money in it to the average going rate of a 125,000-150,000 mile mostly stock C5 (Non Z06)...which will also need fresh shocks, tires and some bushings and such (I was seeing "junk" C5's for $11k, "decent" cars seemed to start about $15k and a "better than just decent" car seemed to run $17k+). In that context it seems like an OK deal for my uses. My wife recently said "I'm glad we bought this and not a Miata, this has a lot more room and is much more comfortable...and our cooler fits in the trunk". If the wife is happy and it's reasonably fun to drive, it will do nicely for my uses.

So far, the breakdown is:

$11,500 - Car
$199 - UMI PHB
$499 - UMI SFC
$389 - UMI Swaybars
$249 - UMI Aluminum sway bar mounts (optional, you can use the standard mounts and save $250 if you would like)
$1849 - UMI Shocks/springs (coil overs) (you could do Bilstiens and springs if that setup makes you happy....and save some cash)
$200 - B&M Ripper shifter
$150 - 10 bolt girdle (optional, you can save money here too)
$550 - 10 spoke wheels (or just run what comes on it)
$450 - new tires
$99 - iPod adapter
$99 - SLP "lid"
$79 - STB
$200 - Stoptech pads and new front rotors (again, anything you buy will likely need this done)

$16,512

I'm going to take the 10 spoke wheels to "wheel doctor" and have them fixed up and painted charcoal grey ($480 additional, but you don't have to do this either).

That puts me right about $17k. I could barely find a Corvette to buy for that price (that I actually wanted to buy), and then I'd have started on brakes, shocks, and other maintenance. Granted, this isn't a C5, but a C5 was the only other choice (or a C6) for me. Though I did miss a decent Z51 C5 in Michigan for $15,500 with under 100k miles on it. Those cars are out there, but they go fast and there aren't many.


I looked at buying a 2016 Camaro SS, but I really don't fit in it and I had serious issues with the rear visibility (3rd and 4th gen cars were bad, the new ones may as well be panel vans). I considered a new Mustang, and then the $39,999 670 hp Roush supercharged cars appeared. My wife told me to go buy one instead of a car like this. I was tempted. In the end, this one should be pretty cheap fun, but I actually like these cars....even with all of their flaws.

I'll take it back to Jack when it's done.

As always, your results may vary.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 20 2016, 07:05 PM

Agreed, what I meant was more along the lines of it doesn't fit what I would want out of a street car any more. My E46 M3 does all of the things that you described much better (IMO) at a price point that (again IMO) is more than fair for all the improvements it offers. DIY maintenance is just as easy, there is just more of it and parts cost more. Now that isn't to say that everyone should do what I did, just that I really couldn't see myself street driving a 4th gen when I could be street driving the M3.

But maybe I'm a bit different. After all, I'm perfectly happy beating the snot out of my 1.0T Fiesta on a daily basis. That and I am enjoying the opportunity to go full retard on the ESP car with no regards for comfort.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 20 2016, 08:17 PM

I've got an E36 M3 for my daily. It's a 98 with the 4 doors. The car seat fits back there and it's an absolute blast to drive. My 2 yr old already says "daddy, go fast!" I love it.

But. I really like my 4th gen as a weekend car/track car. A 4th gen that can corner really gets some attention.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 20 2016, 10:43 PM

The BMW stuff is a good choice. And I hear they are easy to work on. I'm just too lazy to learn the nuances of another platform. lol

And you can't get a T top BMW (though they do convertibles....and when my friends top quit going up I think the dealer only charged him $3,500 to fix it and the factory service manuals omitted the stuff about the top actuators as part of the "you're too dumb to work on this part" adjustments they made to the retail version of the FSM).

We took it to a drive in movie the other night and took the long way home. It was a nice night and we put a bit over 100 miles on it. When the weather is decent, we seem to put about 100 miles a night on it (on nights where we take it out). That's what I wanted it for, enjoying the nice weather. I have a pretty nice truck as a daily driver and this is just a "multipurpose" toy (nice evenings, and maybe an autocross or so at some point just because I can). And, if prices continue to be "stupid", I may not manage to lose much money on it if I were to sell it at some point....but I never buy cars as investments so I don't care that much.

Posted by: Hookdup Jun 20 2016, 11:39 PM

Another car that gets some attention!
Too bad it needs 5 pt harnesses, seats, better than tool box liner over the leather, and a set of R7's, and a trailer.
This is my alternate car, when the 4th gen t/a has issues.
http://www.ponycars.net/images/tempimages/rich/20140517_NJM_DE2_5272.jpg

Posted by: trackbird Jun 21 2016, 11:44 AM

Thinking more about it. If you wanted to do one of these cars for "cheap" and improve the pretty terrible factory suspension, you could likely do the following:

Bilstien HD shocks
Strano springs
35mm front sway bar
PHB upgrade

Align it and enjoy it. As time goes on, an STB and SFC's are always a good call (at least in my mind), but you could build a reasonably fun car with the list above.

So far I've been really impressed with the UMI rotojoint PHB. I've always run rod ends and good rod ends add very little noise and vibration to the car, but they can add a slight amount of what I consider to be a very subtle "buzz" from road noise. These have been completely silent. I may change my mind and decide to give the matching lower control arms a try. Also, the car was "hopping" to the side a bit over big bumps at freeway speeds. I think that was due to the natural arc that the PHB takes during suspension travel and compression of the rubber bushings that would then "spring back" and push the tail slightly sideways. I no longer feel that with the new PHB. I really expected that I'd need to lower the car (changing the arc of the PHB) to and get shocks on it to cure the hop, but the PHB has cured almost all of it.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 21 2016, 02:13 PM

New tires and UMI coilovers and a UMI trans tunnel brace are ordered and should be rolling in here soon. After that, I'm down to getting the wheels refinished/straightened (there's a bent lip on one wheel) and an alignment and I think I'm "done" with this car (I still have to change trans, PS fluids and anti freeze and dyno it).

I'm still trying to convince my wife that it needs an exhaust. Otherwise, this might be my shortest duration project ever. I'm going to have to learn to just drive it and enjoy it.

Posted by: nape Jun 23 2016, 01:14 AM

Dibs on the T56 when you part it out.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 23 2016, 01:20 AM

Bwhahahaha.....Thanks TJ.

Posted by: slowTA Jun 23 2016, 03:49 AM

I already called dibs on 'all the good stuff' up in post #13!

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 23 2016, 03:30 PM

If you lived near me, I'd let you make a lap in the Z. It has a Flowmax single out the back, and gutted cat. Driving under an overpass with the top down just begs for moar throttle!!

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 23 2016, 06:30 PM

Coilovers shipped today Kevin

Posted by: trackbird Jun 24 2016, 12:22 AM

Excellent! I'm anxious to get them installed. I'll have to post up lots of pics when I open them up. From what I've seen, they are almost too pretty to put under the car.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Jun 24 2016, 06:04 AM

oh man I'm jealous !

I finally got my Strano's / KONI's this year (been "needing" since 08/2011 !) ... Let me know what alignment specs you decide to go with, I'm trying to decide a "street/race" compromise

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird Jun 24 2016, 11:54 AM

That's easy. Knowing that this is more street car than "track" car, I'll stay with my typical street alignment.

-1 Camber (if it will get there, and it should)
5.2 Castor (5.2-5.5, depending what range is available)
0 toe

That is responsive enough to enjoy driving it on backroads and exit ramps and can still do the occasional autocross while not being so darty and nervous that my wife will hate driving it. For a dedicated autocross build (or more aggressive build), I use 1/32" of toe OUT (not in). It makes the car want to turn (you trade stability for response) but it's more nervous/less stable in normal street driving. I also run more negative camber (-1.5 to -1.8 for most tires) for a more focused application, but that gets you running on the inside edges of the tires in a straight line and it can lead to some instability (darting) under braking when combined with the toe out. So, I'm not doing those things on this car and we will see how it goes.

The Strano/Koni package works well on these cars. I was all set to go that way again when the new UMI package appeared and Sam tuned it (you can also order them from Sam if you decide you want a set). If it wasn't for Sam tuning them, I'd have stayed with Koni shocks. However, I know how Sam tends to set up a car and I like his approach. There were a few guys here who wanted to know more about the UMI package so I figured I'd give it a shot...in the name of science and all that. I'm really looking forward to it and I've been very pleased with all of the UMI parts for this project. Ryan and the UMI crew are building great stuff and you won't find a nicer group to work with.

Posted by: 79T/A Jun 24 2016, 02:31 PM

UMI deserves praise for continuing development on these cars. More importantly they deserve praise for how they treat their customers. Without a doubt, they have the best customer service in the industry. They always pick up the phones to answer your questions, and they go out of their way to make sure that the customer gets the parts they need, and they listen to customers on what products they should design next. It's an example of how a business should be run. Ryan, Ramey - and the rest of the guys and girls at UMI - you guys rock. Don't change a thing.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 24 2016, 11:51 PM

I just dropped the 10 spokes off at the wheel refinishing shop. They had a nice Maserati on one of the lifts getting a wheel fixed as well as other fun cars. We picked out a pretty cool color of charcoal with a silver accent (like a dusting so that it looks like metal flake, I really can't explain it) and left the tires to be mounted when they are done. They are going to straighten the bent wheel and refinsh them all. I should have them sometime next week. The guy who helped me was one of the guys from out in the shop and quite a car enthusiast. I made him a good deal on the old tires since he said he loved them and could use them. I think he'll take good care of the wheels. I'm anxious to get them back and see how they look.

Progress.....

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 25 2016, 09:00 PM

Which tires were you putting on these wheels?

Posted by: trackbird Jun 25 2016, 09:09 PM

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+Z

275/40-17

I ran these on the teal terror and we did extremely well autocrossing on them. They are actually fairly sticky and they respond well. They are also quite affordable, but overall I liked them well enough to buy more of them.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 26 2016, 01:27 AM

The HTRZ II is my favorite. They are dirt cheap and actually has a decent amount of grip. The best part is when I have some fun on the street, I don't feel like I'm leaving $20 bills on the road. I used to put the baddest street tire I could afford, like the NT05's that I had on my M3. They were incredible. So much grip. So much so, that I couldn't have any fun.

I'm sure the regular HTRZ is similar.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 26 2016, 01:43 AM

I like the HTRZ II, that's what I had on the Corvette. The II is a 360 treadwear tire, the HTRZ is a 160 treadwear. They are pretty sticky, but you can overheat them with two drivers at an autocross. We found that they'd get greasy for the last few runs if we didn't wet them down to cool them. I think they'll be great budget street tires for my uses.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 26 2016, 02:12 AM

Wow no kidding. So they would be terrible on a road course, huh?

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 26 2016, 09:56 PM

Will the local autocrosses allow you to run those at that tread wear rating in the street classes, or ONLY in E/SP or above??

Posted by: trackbird Jun 26 2016, 11:56 PM

I ran them at Nashville superspeedway and I didn't have any trouble at all. It seems to be all the sliding around and driving it with the throttle that really heats them up. I did three 20 minute sessions on them, then we autocrossed the crap out of them on my teal car with two drivers and they still had good tread on them when I sold the wheels and tires.




I'm not sure. I ran CP with them in the Teal Terror. I haven't run an event in about 5 years. The rules have changed since then. Worse case they can put me in SM/SM2 or CAM (if legal) or "wherever". I'm sure I'm pretty rusty and I'll just need a few events to get my reflexes back and get my wife comfortable running. If I can remember how to drive, then I might worry about what class I actually belong in.

My theory was something like this...if I buy something 200 treadwear or higher, I'd never make it to an event. If I buy these (160 tread wear) then I'm likely to wind up an event next week. That's just how things go. We'll see if I can actually get out to an event this summer.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 27 2016, 03:04 AM

It would be a shame to take that car to an OVR event. They are using National Trails for every one now and the last time the car came back into grid with a full layer of dirt on all four Hoosiers. Better off waiting for a Toledo local

Posted by: trackbird Jun 27 2016, 10:49 AM

Everything is being run at Trails? Wow...that's awful. I didn't know that, though I knew they built a medical building in part of the Ackerman lot and I wasn't sure where else they might be able to run. The old airport site was probably the worst one, so I was hoping they weren't running there.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 27 2016, 12:12 PM

For now yes. I know there is some hope of getting back in at Ackerman or maybe Rickenbacker, but right now it's just talk.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 27 2016, 12:49 PM

Are you near Columbus? I didn't realize we had too many OVR guys on here these days.

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 27 2016, 01:17 PM

Thank you sir

We try very hard, and honestly I guess when it is your passion and you enjoy it then it comes naturally.

13 years ago I started on LS1tech doing whatever I could to sell control arms, panhard bars and subframe connectors to people who never heard of UMI. I had to work very hard for every sale, then make sure the customer was getting a quality product and excellent service after the sale. I had to really prove ourselves on there and build a good reputation. To this day we still feel we need to do that and the other guys here feel the same, it is just who we are.

We will continue to a be a positive asset to this community. We are just getting started

Posted by: camarokid91 Jun 27 2016, 02:02 PM

I no long have an F-body but am just going to throw this out there. UMI should buy the rights or blueprints to UBE Tq arm and do a production run of them.

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=17190&st=0

-M

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 27 2016, 04:43 PM

Dublin. Was in the Boston area when I signed up for the site originally, then did a stint in Michigan for a while.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 27 2016, 05:00 PM

Ah, you're not far away at all. I've torn up places all over Dublin for work. I know the area well.

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 27 2016, 05:52 PM

^^^THIS goes 'without saying', but, I am REALLY glad you said it anyways!!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 27 2016, 11:05 PM

I'm still opening boxes, but here's a sneak peek.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 27 2016, 11:24 PM

Sweet.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 28 2016, 02:17 AM

Christmas in June!

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 28 2016, 02:47 AM

You were unboxing at 7:05 pm. It is now 10:45 pm. Why do we not have more pictures and a detailed write up of the install along with a street test yet? YOU HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!!!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 11:05 AM

Lol.

EDIT: THIS KIT DOES NOT USE THE FRONT UPPER SPRING MOUNTS.

This kit reuses the front spring mounts (the rubber parts at the top) and I didn't want to take mine apart. That way I can keep the old stuff together and I don't have to play with spring compressors. I ran to the local parts store and they quoted me $234 for all the parts (Moog) and one was in stock locally so I had to drive 20 minutes to get it....or that's what they wanted. Instead I ordered the same Moog parts from Rockauto for $109 to my door. Once those arrive, I'll get these built up on the bench and get ready to swap them in. I was trying not to open up all the hardware until I was installing things. I realized that I can get the rears assembled and ready to go and post that information. Maybe I'll do that tonight.

EDIT: THIS KIT DOES NOT USE THE FRONT UPPER SPRING MOUNTS.

The hardware is really NICE stuff. The shocks are beautiful. The kit includes spacers, bolts, bearings, washers, bolts, etc, it's really complete. There's a spanner wrench in the package for adjusting the coil over perches. I'm really anxious to try it out.

And I'll admit to a brief minute of brain fart. I sent Ryan a note last night when I saw the instructions mentioning that you can mount the rear shocks right side up or upside down (spring on top or bottom). The adjuster is on the top of the shock shaft (not on the body), so it will be hard to reach "right side up". But I was looking at this and thinking "you're changing which way is up and down and that will reverse the compression and rebound damping". I scratched my head a bit and realized that the shock gets shorter under compression (mounted either way) and longer under extension (mounted either way). Apparently it had been a long day and I talked myself into thinking flipping the shock would flip the valving. I figured I'd share my moment of stupid to save others.

Sorry Ryan.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 28 2016, 12:22 PM

I would at least open the boxes and do an inventory. There are a lot of parts there, and it would sux if you were short a couple of items. I enjoyed that when I did the brakes on the Firebird. I was shorted a couple of bolts from a big box speed parts warehouse, so the project was stopped for a week waiting for replacements. Just a thought.


And we get to see more New Parts Pr0n.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 12:35 PM

I did a quick count and everything looks to be there, I just didn't unwrap all the nicely wrapped plastic bits. Tonight I think I'm going to set them up (pending the new front upper mounts) and get it all ready to go. I can take more pics when I do that. There's a warning to put anti seize on the shock body threads if you're going to adjust it with weight on it. I hate to smear anti seize on these pretty shocks, but I guess that's the plan.

I'll get more pics up tonight.

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 28 2016, 12:46 PM

Kevin,

This does not use the upper front rubber shock mounts, it completely eliminates them. Is that what you are talking about? Here's a picture to help show that- http://umiperformance.com/catalog/images/large/2048-xxxac_LRG.jpg

We are working on better installation pictures for the site too... just behind on a few things.

Glad you like the kit!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 01:02 PM

I told you it was a long day. Ugh. lol. I thought it was showing that bolt going through the upper mount (using the single bolt hole for the original shock mount). I only skimmed the instructions and obviously I was out in left field by the time I got home. That will teach me to skim the instructions and try to get some info and pics posted. lol.

I assumed it was removing that mount. Then I read it and I thought I saw otherwise. I shouldn't do things when I'm tired.

Also, in the past I've avoided removing the upper ball joint, I just spin the upper control arm around on the ball joint. I'll let you know if I manage to do that this time and I'll try to get pics.

Ok, tonight I'll get everything out of the boxes and mock up all the parts, re-read the instructions and take some pics. Maybe I'll take a nap first.


They always say to "idiot proof" the instructions....and even then you'll manage to find a bigger idiot. I'm not usually that guy, but I really screwed this one up so far. lol.

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 28 2016, 01:56 PM

Kevin, How about we just give you a redo for yesterday

I am excited to see what you think and how it all works out. I think you will be really pleased!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 02:30 PM

Hopefully I'm smarter today. I'll prep everything today and then I'll have to see if I can get those installed in an evening (likely two). It's not my first rodeo, so I might try it. I need to make some calls about an alignment and set something up. On the other hand, the tires that are on the car are junk anyway (if the alignment takes a couple days I'm not hurting anything). My wheels should be refinished this week and I'm supposed to have them back on Friday. I'd love to get the car done this week and we can try to catch up while your in town for Goodguys.

Now I have work to do and pictures to post. I might need to talk someone into coming over to handle photographer duties, maybe I'll capture some pics you can use.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 04:06 PM

Just for you guys, I went home on lunch and assembled the fronts. The only thing that I thought might need a little clarification was assembling the top spring perch. You have to slide the bump stop down (just grab the top of the shock mount and twist, it will slide), then put the wire spring retainer over the shock shaft and move it into the groove on the shock, then slip the spring mount over the shock shaft and lift it up to the top while squeezing the spring tabs on the wire spring...then release. It's not a big deal, but if you've never done a set before you might stare at it for a moment.

I'll double check, but I think the roller bearing and washers under the spring may be an upgrade (I just told UMI to send me all of the good stuff, options and all). And I also have the optional rear bump stops. If you're ordering the kit, there are a couple options (at least the bumpstops and maybe the bearings for the spring), I just wanted to mention it so you'd know to look for them.

I wound the perches up so the springs don't beat up the shock body while I'm moving them around, I'm fairly certain that I'll have to lower those once I install them (but maybe not?). And there isn't any anti seize on them yet.

Also, I realized why I thought we were keeping the upper rubber mounts. The instructions mention penetrating oil and a grinder to get the upper shock mount loose from the upper A arm mount. I always associate that with getting the shock shaft out of the upper mounts (where they were typically rusted in place). So, my brain just assumed we were going to be cutting the shock out of a rusty old mount. See what happens when I connect the dots on my own?

Now, on to the pics. The pictures don't do justice to the upper shock mount. The welding and powder coating on it are absolutely beautiful, as is the rest of the kit. Really nice stuff. Did I mention that already?

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 28 2016, 04:44 PM

Is that a new offering? I just ordered a new setup from UBE and it was a real pain to find something off the shelf to mount the shocks to that eliminated the upper bushing and was ESP legal. I ended up ordering the Afco mount a few days ago which looks to be the exact same thing.

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 28 2016, 05:19 PM

Kevin,

Assembly looks great. We may need to add some additional shock assembly instructions, good idea. The clip that holds the top hat in place is awesome, lots of coilovers let the hat fall when the suspension unloads but Afco's clip idea is that nice touch we look for. They also use to have a hole in the hat to zip tie the spring in place but I haven't seen that in awhile.

For the options- We automatically include the thrust bearings with every kit, this way you have the right stuff the first time. It makes adjusting so much easier and saves the shock body. The rear bump stops are optional. If your factory rear rubber stops are in great shape keep those, if not buy these. We recommend using one of the other to prevent the shock from bottoming out. Like Sam always tell us, these aren't bump stops, they are bumpers. We tuned the kit to work with them.

Our kit is very similar to Afco's, we never listed them as just brackets yet but we have been making them for a long time. We use them in our street and drag kits that use Viking shocks.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 05:26 PM

That might be a good thing to cover. I'm sure it will save you some phone calls. It's a really slick way to do it, I'm impressed. And if I can save some headaches or phone calls, it's worth sharing the info here.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 28 2016, 06:43 PM

Ryan, why did you guys choose the spring rates that you did? A car compromise between street and track? I'm on 750/250 and it's not nearly as rough as I thought it'd be. Of course our roads are pretty decent down here.

What's the max spring rates that you think the shocks can handle?

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 06:53 PM

I don't want to speak for Ryan/UMI, but I'll add some info that might be good background information.

Sam Strano tuned these. Sam ran 550/150 and even 500/150 springs and ran them to several national championships.

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 28 2016, 07:21 PM

I used to have Strano's springs, still have his shocks. The 550/150 were great springs and handled great. But the 750/250 handle even better, and I've take weight out. I feel like full weight cars may benefit from stiffer springs. The awesome thing about this set up is it so easy to change to whatever spring rate you desire.

Do UMI/Strano feel that stiffer springs can compromise handling?

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 28 2016, 07:30 PM

Steve91T- Good question.

As Kevin mentioned, Sam Strano uses 550/150 and has won multiple championships on them so for us this was a good starting point. We started with 550/175 and it worked very well, so we then tried 600/200 and it worked even better. As you mentioned these rates (to us) are a great compromise between track and street. For example my step mother just picked up a bone stock 2002 Z28 so we put on a set of 600/200's and Bilstein shocks and it felt awesome. I wanted her, from a ladies standpoint to give us feedback, does the car feel rough, stiff, jolt you? She has been driving it for two weeks now and says it feels amazing, handles well, not stiff and very comfortable. So this tells me these rates are excellent rates for multiple use.

However with all that being said we will be working on rate increases on our shop car to see what we can come up with. But before we make too many changes we want to learn our car and set up with what we have. The shocks will be okay with more rate, the rebound is high. (Ramey can go into more shock details than me if needed).

So to answer the question in a shorter reply- Yes, we feel these rates are great for a street car as well as track.

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 28 2016, 08:20 PM

That's even with the Torrington bearings the kit seems to contain??

Is there anything else one can use to stop the threaded alloy bits from 'cold welding' together?

Yes, that would be a BIG shame to have to slather those works of art in sloppy, staining, silver (OR copper) anti-sieze!

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 28 2016, 08:27 PM

Would it limit the damper travel too much, or adversely effect the rear compression/handling if one used BOTH the factory bump stops (in good shape) AND the bumpers??

Posted by: trackbird Jun 28 2016, 08:52 PM

Yea, it's just to prevent galling of the jacking threads and spring perch when turning them under load. I'll slather them gently and assume that anybody who sees them was just hit by my car and is currently under it.



The front shocks have the built in bump stops (bump rubbers?). The rear shocks are "bare" and use the rear factory or the UMI bump stop.

Pics of the rear shocks and hardware below.

Posted by: 79T/A Jun 28 2016, 09:51 PM

Those brackets are awesome. UMI sold me a set of brackets when I was doing a shock upgrade this winter. Tightens up the car when you get rid of that sloppy rubber factory stuff, and makes the car even easier to work on. Need to get the front coilover out? 2 bolts and 5 minutes of your time.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jun 29 2016, 01:58 AM

So you are saying you won't end up at 1200/550?

Posted by: Steve91T Jun 29 2016, 02:32 AM

Which brackets? I've gotten pretty good at taking the front "coilovers" out, but I had no idea there was a faster way!

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 29 2016, 03:35 PM

These are race car parts now, no more worrying about looks. They will be scratched, dinged and chipped after a season . You ought to see ours...

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 29 2016, 08:54 PM

TRUE, and you should see the underside of MY almost 200K mile car which NEVER FAILS to make me very jealous of all the trailered race cars', grime free, NEVER exposed to salt soup, quite clean, almost pristine unibodies and suspensions by comparison (as seen on most of the pics posted on this site).
(You cannot even tell I have Koni Sports, or Eibach coil over springs on the front any more! )

Does anyone make a BLACK anti-seize??

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 02:32 AM

Ok, so the fronts aren't too bad to install. The car is pretty clean (though the upper shock mounts have the only rust I've seen on this thing so far...which figures, they are always rusty), so it all came apart easy enough. We got everything installed in a couple hours (with stopping for dinner, etc). Then we decided to put a jack under each control arm and "ballpark" the ride height. Something didn't look right, but I figured the tape measure can't be wrong...right? Wrong.... We set the car down and the jack popped out from under it. I can't get a work light under the sub frame connectors (much less a jack)....lol. Tomorrow I'll jack up the rear so I can get a jack under the front and we'll make a few adjustments. We did get a laugh out of the super low ride height (and this is with 3" of thread left on the coil overs...not that you could expect to use the rest of the threads without longer springs). Bwhahahaha.....

Pics:

Posted by: UMI Performance Jun 30 2016, 12:58 PM

Kevin, I like that low look

Also once you get the height where you want it the car will still be on the bump stops a lot, this is correct. We designed it this way and that is why we use those nice progressive rate stops.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 01:05 PM

Yea, I figure we are ready to go run with the Honda crowd, just as soon as I can get the bottom of the wheels pointed out at a 45 degree angle. We joked that the front bumper should stay clean because the nose will now drive under bugs...not counting the ones we scrape off the ground. The car is about "three fingers" high (to the air dam or the bottom of the SFCs). I told my friend that we needed a "Three Fingers Tequila" decal for it.

It's low....lol. It actually reminded me of some of the super high power turbo drag cars, they always seem to run the nose "stupid low". It's so short that it looks really strange to stand next to the top of the window frame. My wife commented that it's almost as low as the C4 Corvette was....and these cars are much taller than a C4, they just aren't that "flat".

It would look better that low with the new wheels....which should be done tomorrow (I hope).

Also, I didn't separate the upper balljoint, I just pulled the old shock assembly down and lifted the top off and spun it 180 degrees on the balljoint. Removed the bottom bolts from the shock and lifted the old one out. We bolted the new one in place with the upper assembly hanging out of the fender and reassembled (you can see the dirt on the cotter key and balljoint threads....they never came apart). I'm not sure it's any more difficult, but it saves tearing up the balljoint boot. I also bolted the top of the shock in place when I put the upper mount back into the car and bolted it in. Then we put the bolts through the lower shock mount. You have to watch that you don't beat the shock body up on the end of the swaybar. It's likely safer to do it the other way, but this saved the balljoint boots and that's worth "being careful" to me.

When I backed it out of the garage to turn it around, the "bump" onto the concrete garage section felt much different than the stock shocks and springs. This was just with the rears installed. This is extremely unscientific based on a 30' test drive, but I was impressed that I could feel the difference in the bump. I'm guessing these are monotube and have much larger pistons than stock shocks? That would be a "low speed damping" event, and the shocks seemed to actually "see" the motion. The original shocks felt like you were in a hammock when you hit the bump pulling into the garage. These felt much different. I'm anxious to try it once we get it out of snow plow mode.


And I can't thank Bubba353z enough for spending the last two evenings in the garage wrenching with me. A second set of hands is a huge help for projects like this.

Posted by: Ojustracing Jun 30 2016, 02:41 PM

Kevin I think we need picture of clearance based on beer can so we can all reference the look!!! AHAHAHAHAh

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jun 30 2016, 02:50 PM

"Low ri der, she's a real goer!"

Couldn't resist!! It's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the after picture of the car.

At least you were able to get the jack out. When we went with the shorter front springs on the Firebird, I thought I had compensated for the shorter spring with the jacker adjustment, but set the car right down on the jack, and couldn't move the jack to get the car back up. Had to get another jack, get the body up high enough to be able to move the first jack, get the car up enough to get ramps under the front wheels, make the adjustments and then set the car back down.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 02:59 PM

I can arrange that....assuming I have any beer left that's in actual cans. You might have to settle for a bottle laying sideways.




I've been thinking about that song since we did the rear and it looked like it wanted to drag the rear bumper. lol. It looked really funny with the rear lowered and the front at stock height. Now I've reversed the problem and made it worse.

The jack I used (because it was handy) was my harbor freight low profile aluminum jack. When it's all the way down the side plates (the jack "body) are taller than the "pad". The plates are also tapered towards the front. The subframe landed on the sides of the jack and it shot it out from under the car as it used the side plates as a "wedge". I wish it had stayed, I'd have lifted it back up on the spot. Now it's a little more difficult.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 04:45 PM

Careful what you wish for. This is under the drivers door (UMI SFCs) and the front fender attachment on the drivers side. The can is nearly 1/4" too tall to roll under the plastic fender (by the two bolts). This is why it's a little tough to get a jack under it right now.

Posted by: Ojustracing Jun 30 2016, 04:54 PM

Great Job!!!! I guess at that height Long tubes are out of the question!!! They would be on the ground!!!!

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 05:52 PM

Yea, it would look like the old indy cars with sparks flying out behind it over bumps. lol. I'd have to build up some skid plates....for the entire chassis.

Posted by: dailydriver Jun 30 2016, 11:48 PM

Yes, I think they used titanium plates to get those fireworks displays over bumps, compressions, and dips.

You did a GREAT, sano job on the anti-seize application, as it almost looks like part of the shock body's anodizing, and as if it came that way.

Posted by: trackbird Jun 30 2016, 11:56 PM

The trick is to unwind the spring perch, smear anti seize on the body and then wind the spring perch up through it (or down). It left a beautifully even line all the way around. It was an accident, but it worked.

I raised the ride height today, then I raised it again and then again. It's still too low, but it's close. It's about 25 3/4" to 26" to the fenders. I'm almost there.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 1 2016, 01:53 AM

I put 40 miles on it tonight. The car is still a bit too low and the back is on the bumpstops a lot. Enough that it's causing a bit of a rough ride over big dips. But overall the car feels great, turn in is crisp and instant (and I haven't aligned it yet, but I have some theories about that on this car), the ride quality is great, it's "sporty" without being abusive (more like a BMW "M" series car). A touch more ride height should take care of it, then to get the alignment done.

Alignment: This car seemed to have excessive toe in and little to no negative camber (based on the way it drove and the tire wear). Lowering it adds negative camber and toe out. I suspect it's close to 0 toe and "some" negative camber. It felt much better.

And on the way back into Columbus, we pulled up beside an older gentleman in a 2000 NBM Z28 convertible with a 6 speed and 32k miles on it. It was also a convertible and we wound up making the last few miles of the trip into Columbus together (while talking at traffic lights). Not a bad first drive.

Posted by: UMI Performance Jul 1 2016, 11:57 AM

Kevin,

Great to hear, and yes sounds like you need to get the height up some. We are actually working on a recommended ride height now to put in the instructions of the kit to make sure people aren't on the bumpers all the time. We just raised ours a tad bit, it was getting pretty low as well.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 1 2016, 12:04 PM

Right now I'm at 2 1/4" to the rear spring perch (the bottom of the perch) measured from the bottom thread on the shock body (it's not "exact", but it's a decent way to match them up). The front shocks are at 4 1/4" from the bottom of the threads on the shock body to the bottom of the spring perch. I kept raising the car and then it would settle when I moved it. lol. I made a few adjustments and then decided to go drive it a bit to settle things a bit. I'll make some adjustments again after work tonight. Right now I'm at roughly 26" to the fender lip (front and rear). That's at least 1/2" lower than I want it and I may go closer to 26 3/4" (not that the fenders on these cars ever seem to "match" from car to car).

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 1 2016, 02:43 PM

That's interesting because my car is sitting at 25 1/4 front and 26 1/4 rear.

Think the bump stops are too long?

Posted by: trackbird Jul 1 2016, 02:50 PM

I'm using the factory bump stops. They were in perfect condition on this car, so I'll use them until they fail (they eventually do, but these look to have years left). In this case, I think the car is too low. If it were a track only car and I ran smooth tracks, it might be workable. For street use, I need to get a little more ride height so the suspension has time to work before bouncing off of the stops. I think people tend to run these cars too low, and it can work ok, but I feel like I need to add additional spring rate to stay at this height. In this case, that doesn't make sense (a heavy convertible that sees street duty and might go to the occasional autocross). I just need to raise the car. Honestly, the front seems to be working fine at 26", but I'll likely raise it a bit to match the rear. I have to look at it.

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 1 2016, 04:18 PM

Did you take a pic of the rear coil overs mounted on the car? Maybe I missed it. I wonder how far from the bump stops that are on the shocks are compared to the factory frame mounted ones. Maybe the car needs to be raised a little and then trim the factory bump stops? I remember Alan talking about trimming them.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 1 2016, 04:55 PM

There are no bump stops on the rear shocks. I'm about 3/4" from the bumpstop touching the axle at ride height.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 2 2016, 04:20 AM

I picked up the wheels tonight from the shop. Wheel Medic completely refinished them for me (center caps and all, though I forgot pics of the caps) and mounted new tires. They are a charcoal grey with a metallic addition (I think it's metallic grey and a "spritz" of silver paint, but I'm not exactly sure how they did it....then it's all clear coated).

I raised the ride height again. I raised the rear adjuster 3/4" and I raised the front spring perches 1 complete rotation. Tomorrow I think I'm going to add 1/4" more to the rear and go another turn on the front shocks. I'm ok with it where it is (I have 1 3/4" to the rear factory bump stop), but I thought I might try going a touch more. Then I need to get it aligned and I'm ready to go.

I also grabbed some pics of the rear shocks installed in the car.

Posted by: 79T/A Jul 2 2016, 02:30 PM

Is that paint or powder coat? Looks really good.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 2 2016, 06:25 PM

It's apparently both. I told them I really didn't want powdercoat because I've seen issues with it. But these guys do thousands of wheels. I guess I'll see how it goes. It's a black powdercoat, grey (paint I think?) and then a clear powdercoat.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 5 2016, 02:51 PM

My LCAs should be delivered today. I have an alignment scheduled for tomorrow morning. Tonight I get to make my last ride height adjustments and install the new LCAs and the wheels and tires. Then I'll have to start working on shock adjustments.

My wife drove the car and said it's truly a whole different car now. It feels much more like the BMWs she drove at the BMW school (when she worked for BMWUSA) and nothing like the original floaty pig that we started with. And it doesn't clunk or make noise. So far, so good.

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 5 2016, 06:13 PM

Are you going to get it corner balanced?

Posted by: trackbird Jul 5 2016, 06:25 PM

I considered it, but it's a convertible. lol. Since any events I run with it will just be for fun (just to go do it), I can't see investing the time or money to corner weight it.

On the other hand, this seems likely to be a rather capable autocross car now and I'm a little sad it's not a hard top or T top car.... Oops.

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 5 2016, 08:01 PM

The way I see it is you spent a lot of money on that suspension. It'd be a shame to not take advantage of the adjustability. I think I paid like $75 to have mine adjusted on a set of scales, the fronts anyway.

Idk, maybe you could get it done and really not notice a difference or maybe it'll make your driving experience that much better.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Jul 6 2016, 12:50 AM

If you don't mind sharing, how much did the wheel refinish cost ya ?

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird Jul 6 2016, 02:35 AM

$120/wheel "refinishing"
$15/center cap (paint/refinishing)
"something" for painting the lug nut covers
$15/tire mount and balance
"something" to straighten the bent one (I have to pull the bill out of the console in the truck)

All total (tax and all), I walked out the door for about $665.

I raised both ends by one "turn" of the spring perch (adjuster). That's about 1/8" on the shock and a bit more at the wheels. I was going to go with two turns on each end, but one seems to be about where I wanted it. It might be a touch low, but it handles well, looks ok and I didn't get hung up on the speed bumps in the local parking lot tonight. I'm calling it a success.

I really like the coil overs. UMI and Sam Strano did an outstanding job on them. I haven't even had a chance to start tuning yet and the car already feels shockingly good. I'll get it aligned tomorrow and go from there. Everything I got from UMI has been top shelf and Ryan and the crew do amazing work and are all around nice guys. They will be in town this weekend and I'm going to catch up with them so Ryan can take this one for a spin. Seems only fair for all the effort he has put into helping me with this project. Thank you just doesn't seem to be enough.

And....it's "done" (at least for now). Alignment is scheduled for tomorrow morning.

(The close up gives a better idea what color the wheels are, they look dark in the big pic).

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 6 2016, 04:57 AM

That looks really good

Posted by: trackbird Jul 6 2016, 06:51 PM

It looks like I may have a bent spindle on this car. One side would go to -2 camber and the other was -1.3. Castor was 4.5 (max) and 3.5 (max). Something is off....

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jul 6 2016, 08:08 PM

Good to find it now, than a month down the road when you're trying to figure out why the inside of one tire is showing air.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 6 2016, 11:34 PM

Yea, but it still sucks. Now I have to find two known good spindles and swap them out. I'll likely replace the castor bushings just for grins and then I have to figure out if I want to do new upper control arms.


Edit:

I just found a pair for sale on Ebay. They say 60 day return policy and free shipping. For $69/ea, I ordered a pair. Maybe I can line them all up and figure out which ones don't match (laying on the garage floor on the bearing flanges). Then I'll touch up the paint and install them.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jul 7 2016, 03:16 AM

Funny. People laugh at me for cleaning and painting the replacement parts. Well, my wife, at least. I'm glad to know it still happens in the world.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 7 2016, 10:47 AM

I would have refinished the upper control arm mounts (they had a little rust....the only rust on this car) if I hadn't been in a hurry to get the shocks on it so I could get back to driving it. If I tear the whole nose down, I'll likely buff the rust off and redo those while I'm in there. You're not the only one with automotive OCD.

I guess I should get castor and camber bushings for the lower control arms (they don't seem excessively worn, but they are from 2002) and maybe fresh balljoints while I'm in there. If it's worth doing....

Posted by: trackbird Jul 9 2016, 02:35 PM

Well, I have new Moog Problem Solver control arm bushings, new Problem Solver balljoints (ordered from Stranoparts.com and on my door step the next day), two new-to-me spindles are on the way and I'm waiting for a set of Moog tie rod ends to arrive (I forgot about them until later). I also had a Moog alignment tool delivered (the shop didn't have one, but they ordered their own the day I was there) so I can just take it with me from now on. That came from Jegs and arrived at my door the next day (drop shipped I believe).

Has anybody ever swapped the front control arm bushings with a balljoint press? I've done that on a 3rd gen, but I wondered if I might get lucky on the 4th gen too?

Now, who wants to help me tear down the front end....again?

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jul 9 2016, 02:45 PM

Okay, so I had to go look up 'Moog alignment tool'. Never heard of such a thing. How does that work? Kind of curious now, since we have a 4th Gen.

Posted by: trackbird Jul 9 2016, 10:38 PM

It engages a hole in the LCA and a hole in the K member to allow you to set camber. There is a second hole in the LCA (A arm) and a second hole in the K member to do castor. This is a "turnbuckle" that allows you to push the arm out or pull it in so you can hold a camber or castor setting while you tighten things down.

Posted by: ar52kortlang Jul 10 2016, 02:45 AM

The tool is U shaped and you turn the middle adjusting nut to either push or pull the ends...I got one when I bought my car

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 10 2016, 02:46 AM

It's the tool that no alignment shop has and tells you after they already your car already on the rack.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jul 10 2016, 04:00 AM

I might have a set of stock upper arms, would have to check

Posted by: trackbird Jul 10 2016, 04:06 AM

Thanks! I already ordered a set of Global West upper arms. Though I may wind up trying something new....(that's all I can say for now).

Posted by: trackbird Jul 10 2016, 11:20 PM

My wife and I met Ryan, Ramey, Jerry and the rest of the UMI crew for dinner on Saturday night while we watched all the street rods from the Goodguys event doing burnouts in front of the restaurant (there was a silver Chevy II that sounded like a ProStock car during burnouts....it was a monster). It was a fun evening with a great bunch of guys. Today we met them at the Goodguys event where we got to ride along in the Camaro and the Pontiac. Both are impressive cars that make excellent power and quite a bit of grip. I drug along my pyrometer for tire temps and some minor pressure adjustments (I hope we were helpful). Ryan and the crew drove the wheels off of them both in a field of very fast cars. It was a fun day with a great bunch of diehard gearheads.

Thanks Ryan/UMI for having us along!!!

Posted by: UMI Performance Jul 11 2016, 01:42 PM

Kevin, It was great to finally meet you and Mollie. It's crazy how you can be online friends and never meet at times. I appreciate the tire pressure help and the driving advice, it helped us a lot to gain some time... now if we were just more consistent drivers you may have seen better results! But we are learning at each event.

It was a great weekend, that is what the events are all about, meeting new people, having fun and testing. Columbus is such a great event for the night life, the cars, the burn outs and the giant car shows at the hotels.

We better see that convertible out there next year for All American Sunday

Posted by: trackbird Jul 11 2016, 04:02 PM

By then I should be ready. I never did see if the silver C5 convertible had a roll bar in it and I couldn't tell with the top up.

I had so much fun riding with you guys that I realized I kinda miss this stuff. Uh oh.... (we know where that leads)

Posted by: UMI Performance Jul 11 2016, 06:46 PM

Ahh yes,I keep forgetting about the roll bar rule...

Posted by: trackbird Jul 11 2016, 06:52 PM

By then I may just give up and put a 4 point in it. It's not the worst idea from a safety standpoint. If I bought a new Miata, I'd have one in it ASAP (they are common and they fit well in those cars). The backseat is my main hangup. I hate the idea of installing one, but it's likely a good idea (or I'm going to need to find another car to go with this one.... ).

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jul 11 2016, 09:12 PM

Just how big a deal is the rear seat? It's next to unusable anyway. They screwed up and put the bolt-in 4-point we have in the 95 with the seat back down. It will in no way allow the seat back to fold back upright. OTOH, the pups don't really mind the platform to sit/stand on when 'bye-bye in the racecar'. :-)

With the bolt-in 4-point, we were able to add harnesses. I picked up a pair of seats that the PO had shoulder harness cutouts installed in. They are great for autocross, and even these seats feel better than the Corbeau 1-piece seat that came with the car.







Wolf Racecraft makes a bar that bolts to the front seat mount bolts that allows you to use a crotch strap. Not the best configuration, since it doesn't come up inside the seat bottom, but better than nothing.

http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=252

Posted by: trackbird Jul 11 2016, 10:54 PM

We hauled my nephew home from my parents house in it and picked him up once or twice. It's a 2 mile drive, but it was handy to have the back seat available. Otherwise, it's useless.

Posted by: dailydriver Jul 11 2016, 11:56 PM

Is your crew going to do any of the Optima events (or have you already)??

I would love to be able to see that 4th gen monster in action on MAV TV!!

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jul 12 2016, 12:25 AM

Nephew ~= puppy. He'll be fine!!

Posted by: trackbird Jul 12 2016, 12:31 AM

He's 13, 6ft tall and about 135 lbs. lol

Posted by: Steve91T Jul 12 2016, 01:44 AM

Great Dane puppy?

Posted by: trackbird Jul 12 2016, 10:49 AM

Bwhahaha.....that's funny (and fairly correct).

Posted by: UMI Performance Jul 13 2016, 05:09 PM

We couldn't make any of the events this year, nothing seemed to line up with our schedule and close enough to us. Maybe next year. We are headed to Gingerman Raceway next weekend for the Motor State Challenge, we hear it's a great event!

Posted by: trackbird Jul 27 2016, 02:08 AM

I'm running a little behind. I never posted pics of the poly/roto joint LCA's that I recently received from UMI. I was in such a hurry to get the thing together and to the alignment shop, I forgot to post pics. As always, UMI builds first rate parts and I'm quite impressed with these.

Why poly/roto joint you ask? Well, I mentioned "wife friendly" on this project. So, that's required a few changes to my usual approach. I've never used (or really even considered) poly/"anything" LCA's in the past. But this time we are going to give it a try. The poly will damp the noises from being transmitted into the chassis, and the roto joints will allow the rear to articulate. The arc of the PHB could cause a little "binding" of the poly end, but I don't think it's actually going to have a noticeable impact in the real world. Unfortunately, I've been a bit slow and I don't have these under the car yet. I'll get them on there when I rebuild the front suspension in the near future (if not before).

Posted by: WarShrike Aug 10 2016, 06:51 PM

Hahah I couldn't run my car any lower unless I moved to a new house or parked my car on the street. Stranos are almost too low, scrape the longtubes/cats a little if I hit the driveway just a little off angle.

Still trying to get spare time to finish the last touches on the car, it's been a weird and wild past month...

Thanks for sharing the pics of the UMI stuff, glad we've got somebody "local" to them on the boards that is also using these for what they're intended for.

Posted by: trackbird Aug 11 2016, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure I'm using them as intended. I'd like to do some autocrossing (even in the convertible) again soon. But I'm struggling with the "roll bar requirement" in many organizations. From a safety standpoint, I absolutely think a convertible should have roll over protection. But this car is really clean and I hate the idea of cutting/welding on it like that.

My wife asked if she bought a hardtop automatic car, could I swap the auto into this car and build the other one to race (swapping in the 6 speed from this one). Just a double transmission swap and I'm back in business. lol.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Aug 11 2016, 04:55 PM

I don't know of any organizations that require a roll bar for autocross.

Posted by: trackbird Aug 11 2016, 05:24 PM

Goodguys and CAM both did. Those were the events I was considering (most recently). Though I'm an under powered CAM car, it seemed like a fun bunch. Goodguys also had a roll bar requirement for a convertible when I read the rules.

I should be able to run SCCA stuff, but I really don't know that I want to run out at trails after our discussion.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Aug 11 2016, 08:59 PM

Run it at Wilmington with the Cincy region or up in Toledo

Posted by: trackbird Oct 9 2016, 02:56 PM

I guess it's been a while since my last update...

I'm smelling a faint amount of coolant. I opened the radiator and it's about 1/2" or so low. I raised the car and looked for the trails of coolant residue I've seen in the past and I don't see anything. If it's leaking at all, it's only the smallest amount. The radiator hoses look original and so is the radiator. So, I've added "cooling" system to my list of winter projects. I plan to swap the radiator, hoses and install fresh water pump gaskets. The new engine was installed in 2011, so it's due to have the coolant changed. This will take care of all of it at once.

I also seem to have a very small drip from the rear axle. I installed a rear axle girdle and it appears that it's weeping the slightest amount of gear lube. So I'm going to put that on the "winter list".

I've got new upper front control arms, tie rods, ball joints, lower front control arm bushings and spindles to change out this winter. I also bought the rocketman wheel bearing adapters. I need to gather up the SKF X-tracker bearings and I'd like to install a brake kit while it's all apart. I'm debating on the C5 parts, or a Baer Racing kit.

I have two slow window regulators and the passengers side is really slow. I've never had to change a window regulator motor on any of my F-bodies. Should I buy the motors or the complete motor and regulator assembly? What's the best way to change them?

And last, 2nd gear is very slightly notchy. It's not anything I can't live with, but it's a handy excuse to pull out the transmission and swap out the clutch and flywheel as well as freshening up the transmission.



It may be an expensive winter, but that should get me ready for many more years.

Posted by: 70T/A400 Oct 9 2016, 09:48 PM

Here is a guide on replacing a window motor on a Camaro.

http://shbox.com/page/windowmotor.html

I have a Baer kit for the fronts on a '98 Pontiac Trans Am WS6. From what I remember they use the same manufacturer from Australia PBR for the calipers. The rotors are two piece and are easy to change the rings on.

Your 2nd gear is a very normal happening on an F-body, Tremec used plastic fork pads and the synchros are not very durable. And neither are the GM clutches. Sounds like you have a fun winter coming up.

Posted by: trackbird Oct 9 2016, 10:23 PM

Thanks. I haven't seen any how too guides for the windows. I have a shiny new set of factory service manuals, but a how to guide it always a good idea.

I had Wilwoods on my last 2002 Z28, but they don't like weather and they don't have seals. The Baer kit looks like a good option. Which kit are you running? The Track 4 or Extreme, etc.

The 2nd gear issue is pretty common, and if I'm doing the clutch anyway....I figured I'd upgrade shift forks and do the usual tune up.

Posted by: Steve91T Oct 9 2016, 11:06 PM

What about changing to a GTO T56? I know the ratios are slightly different and it has better syncos.

Posted by: 79T/A Oct 9 2016, 11:30 PM

Buy a drop in magnum from D&D and sell the T56. F-body cores are worth a good amount of coin.

Posted by: trackbird Oct 10 2016, 12:10 AM

I don't plan to race this one. It might do a few autocross events, but I can't justify spending the money for upgrading things. If it was a hardtop/t top car, I might consider it more seriously.




I could live with the trans for a while. It's not that bad, but it is occasionally notchy into 2nd. Fresh fluid might do it, but I want to do the clutch anyway. Racerdad here on frrax can do the T56 overhauls so we will do it (I just have to buy parts). No point spending more than that.

Posted by: Steve91T Oct 10 2016, 01:20 AM

The only reason I suggested the GTO T56 was because you said you were going to rebuild your tranny. So the cost would be close to a wash.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Oct 10 2016, 02:44 AM

Wow. Good luck on that clutch job. I think if the clutch went out, again, on our 95, I'd push it to the curb with a 'free to a good home' sign in the window.

It's NOT a fun job.

Posted by: trackbird Oct 10 2016, 10:57 AM

What's the price on the GTO gearbox? I can buy the"Stage II" upgrade kit (claimed to be rated at 650 hp) for about $750 and we will do the labor.

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/7824166.htm

And full bearing kit for $160:

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/9342860.htm

Of course they are both out of stock right now (they weren't the other day). But I'm in no rush. My gearbox truly could be sold as a "good" gearbox. I think I feel 2nd gear "catch" every so often. I'm going to go through it as much because it's going to be out of the car as for any other reason. And if it's out, upgrade it.



The '95 clutches aren't too bad. I've done a few (and we're about to do a T56 swap for Gcrites on here). The C4 Corvette was worse. The LS1 clutches aren't too bad. I've done a few of them at this point. It's been quite a few years, but it looks like I've got at least one more to do.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Oct 10 2016, 12:16 PM

I have a friend who autocrosses a C4, and has been a couple of rounds with lightweight clutch issues. He has a friend who has a shop and many of the right tools to do that work, so when he has issues with his clutch, he says it goes on the trailer to the shop, and a new clutch magically appears. He won't mess with it at all.

Posted by: trackbird Oct 10 2016, 12:44 PM

It was tough getting the bellhousing off of the old clutch. If it's worn too thin you can't remove the bellhousing without taking out the pivot ball (they hadn't figured out the removable slave cylinder spacer like the LT1 cars have). The pivot balls always crack at the corners of the allen head socket inside and that makes the pivot stud "lock" into the bellhousing. That job kinda sucked. We found a way around it, but I'm not going to be upset if I never do another one.

Posted by: trackbird Oct 23 2016, 11:53 PM

Well....we went out to enjoy one of the last few convertible friendly nights in Ohio tonight. Unfortunately the car had other ideas. It started with the clutch pedal engaging in various places. And at first I decided it was just in my head. The more we drove, the more I noticed that it felt different and it was engaging closer to the floor (at times). I finally told my wife that we better head back towards the house and try to get home before it acts up for good. A few minutes later I made a shift and felt the clutch pedal stick and then hit my foot. That was a sign that I was smart to head home. I just started to explain to my wife that you can drive these cars without the clutch if needed and I made a 1-2 shift without the clutch so she could see. The next shift the clutch pedal stuck to the floor. I managed to pull it up with my toe and baby it around the corner and down the street. I got it in 4th gear and left it there (all backroads) and managed to time most of the lights so I didn't have to stop. Two lights from home I had to stop. I wasn't sure it was going to let me put it in first, but the clutch was there and engaged right off the floor. I timed the last light to the house and made it into the neighborhood. It let me start one more time and get it in the garage.

So, it's home. I'm assuming the master cylinder is the issue, but I've actually never had hydraulic issues with any of my 3rd or 4th gen cars.

Any thoughts?

Edit:

I walked out and opened the clutch reservoir and found it had about 1/4" of "fluid" in it. And by "fluid", I mean it was a layer of crap that looks like coffee grounds. I guess I'll flush it first and go from there.

Posted by: trackbird Nov 4 2016, 12:18 PM

So I decided to just start over. I'm currently waiting for a Ram adjustable master cylinder, Ram slave cylinder with T/O bearing, pilot bearing, Fidanza flywheel and Centerforce Dual Friction clutch to arrive from Sam Strano. That should about take care of that.

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=142&CategoryID=39&ModelID=7

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=667&CategoryID=39&ModelID=7

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=671&CategoryID=39&ModelID=7

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=144&CategoryID=39&ModelID=7

However, 2nd gear is a bit notchy and 4th might be a little bit as well. I'm not totally convinced that 4th needs attention, but my wife missed 4th one night and complained about it being a bit funny. Then I ground 3rd and 4th once each when babying it home with no clutch. Since it's going to be out on the floor, now is a good time to do a Stage 2 upgrade and freshen it up (see, making cheap projects expensive...just like it says).

I started to order the Stage 2 kit from thegearbox.org and they ran out before I could get my order in. So at this time I have pieces on the way from a few places and I need to order the Stage 2 kit from Hawks (not quite the same as the kit from thegearbox.org guys).

This stuff is on the way:

http://www.tickperformance.com/tremec-30-1st-2nd-synchronizer-assembly-f-body-cobra-viper/

http://www.tickperformance.com/tremec-14-3rd-4th-synchronizer-assembly-f-body-cobra-viper/

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tremec-borg-warner-t56-t5-bronze-shifter-isolator-cup-bushing/

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tremec-t56-5th-6th-bronze-shift-fork-pads-set-upgrade/

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tremec-t56-reverse-bronze-shift-fork-pads-set-upgrade/

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tremec-6-speed-5th-6th-solid-billet-keys-springs-c7-3-c7-4/

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tremec-full-snap-ring-kit-t56-only/


Once I verify that I'm not missing other parts, I need to order this kit to finish it out:

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/t56-transmission-rebuild-package-level-2-parts-only-lt1-ls1-f-body/


That should about do it. Unfortunately I'm smelling a little bit of coolant and I was going to see if it needs a radiator (GM plastic tanks are known to leak) and/or water pump. And I was planning to rebuild the front suspension this winter (I have the parts) but I need the SKF X-tracker bearings and I wanted to put an upgraded brake package on the front. I had decided to let the transmission go until next winter (and do the cooling stuff and front end this year). Now I may be delaying some of that work for a while (I was going to just put a Dewitt's radiator in it and be done with radiator issues or potential ones). Too many expensive projects are attacking at the same time.

I told my wife she could teach her sister to drive a manual transmission on the Camaro because I was going to change the clutch and flywheel anyway. Sadly it had other plans. In good news, I have a 19k mile Z06 clutch and an LS1 flywheel that will be for sale soon. The clutch was changed when the new engine was installed. If anybody needs budget take out parts, look me up.

Posted by: Ojustracing Nov 4 2016, 01:27 PM

Kevin

Make sure you check the heater hoses on the firewall, especially that the motor has been out of the car.

Posted by: trackbird Nov 4 2016, 01:33 PM

Specifically "how"? Are they known to be loose or not attached right? Or do they drop the engine and stretch them? It came with receipts from a GM dealer for a re-manufactured LS1 that was installed in 2011 at 43k miles. It has 62k on it now.

Edit:

Ahh, for coolant leaks. Now I'm with you.

Posted by: GCrites80s Nov 4 2016, 02:10 PM

I wonder why Centerforce LS1 clutches are $300 cheaper everywhere than LT1 versions. I realize that in a lot of cases LT1 stuff has become "rare" all of a sudden but $300...

Posted by: trackbird Nov 4 2016, 03:48 PM

The LS1 clutch is "normal" the LT1 clutch works "backwards". The LT1 uses a "weird" "pull style" linkage and the pressure plate is "inside out". That seems to be the source of the price difference. The C4 Corvette uses the same style clutch (my 1991 did) and it was $650 or so. It's limited to a few applications and can't be used as "common parts" with other platforms or other 11" clutches, etc.

Posted by: trackbird Nov 28 2016, 04:11 PM

At this point I think I'm in for about $2,100 in parts...give or take. I won't be paying anybody for labor, so that will be a savings. I'm not sure what a GTO trans costs, but you might have been on the right track, though I'll have the stage 2 upgrade parts in mine when I'm done (not that I really needed them...at least not at the current power levels). And that includes a new flywheel, clutch and hydraulics that I would have needed anyway. I guess trans parts are about $900 of it.



Instead I went with some parts from the gearbox. I ordered this:

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/3503769.htm

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/3508384.htm

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/3511686.htm

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/5740219.htm

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/3508296.htm (1-2 and 3-4, I had the others already)

I forget what else. It was cheaper than the kit from Hawks and I wound up with a few additional upgrades that were going to be extra cost in their kit. And the tax Hawks was going to charge me more than covered the freight, plus I got a black Friday discount.

Now I'm waiting for the craziness of Christmas to calm down before I take it apart. I'll likely pull the trans the first week in Jan and get moving on it sometime after that.

Posted by: 79T/A Nov 29 2016, 12:20 AM

The cost of T56 parts is getting getting nuts. Mine needs so many parts I'm just going to buy the drop in magnum from D&D and recover some cost by selling mine as a core. Luckily cores are worth good money and people seem to want them.

The other thing that worries me is some parts seem hard to come by these days. I'm at a point where I'm tired of fooling around, I'll pay a little extra for the newer stuff.

Posted by: trackbird Nov 29 2016, 02:02 AM

True. Since over half of my budget was flywheel, clutch and hydraulics I feel "less bad" about the total cost and that I'd only have about $1k of "transmission money" in this. And this was someones daily driver and seems to have avoided being abused. I'm just touching up and upgrading some things while I have it out (and 2nd is a little notchy, but it's not bad enough to have to do something yet).

I thought the Magnum was pretty pricey and it wasn't a direct drop in? Am I incorrect?

Posted by: 79T/A Nov 29 2016, 02:37 AM

Yeah, if I could get away with 1k in transmission parts, I would go the rebuild route. Mine is trashed though, and I haven't even pulled it apart. Among other things, it has a bad 5/6 rattle, which means it broke the press fit on those gears and is mostly likely thrashing what is left of the splines. I was looking at $1600+ in parts, it could be even more. At that point, I personally don't think it's worth it. Even worse, some of the parts I think I may need have very sketchy availability.

D&D performance makes a true drop in magnum for the f-body and GTO. They do the converion for you, but it hits you hard at $3700. Still cheaper than any other magnum option, and in the end you get a stronger, better shifting transmission. Another plus for me is the f-body 1-4 with the close ratio 5/6. In the end, I love my car and I want to build it my way. I already spend too much money on this thing, what the hell. Plus I figure it should last a long time. Factory trans lasted almost 80k (pretty much all track and ax miles), the magnum so do better. I really want to bullet-proof the car, so between the magnum and the speedway 9in I bought from Randy I should be where I want to be. I also do an amazing job of making rediculous justifications to buy car parts. I'm an idiot.

Posted by: trackbird Nov 29 2016, 12:12 PM

Based on the statement above, it's too bad you're not in Columbus, OH. I'm sure we'd get along just fine. We'd be broke, but we'd have fun cars... I think you'd fit in just fine around here.

There's a GTO transmission for sale in the LSX group on facebook for $1750 ($17-something) in Columbus, OH (Blacklick, it's about 20 minutes from me). I don't know where you're located or how I'd get it to you, but I can pick it up.

Posted by: GCrites80s Nov 29 2016, 06:39 PM

T56 anything is rising in cost quickly. The Pro Touring guys love the transmission and they know how to escalate costs if anyone does. Scarcity of the transmission in F-Body/GTO form is getting out of hand due to such a large portion of the cars being sold with automatics. In my business (vintage gaming) items can shoot up in value with little warning. Car stuff (besides high-end auctions) often changes hands with no record, unlike the video games which have several websites that track value. I'm more conscious of supply and demand issues than the average person, so when E30 M3s and Lamborghini Countaches skyrocketed out of nowhere it wasn't as shocking to me.

Posted by: 79T/A Nov 30 2016, 12:47 AM

Kevin, appreciate the offer but I have my mind made up on what I want. Plus, I dislike the GTO 1-4 wide ratios, especially the 3-4 shift. Drops a lot of rpm, and those are the two gears I'm most often in on track. For the reasons GCrites said, I'm hoping I can get a decent amount of money if I sell my T56 as a core.

Posted by: trackbird Dec 21 2016, 01:45 PM

My original winter plans were to rebuild the front suspension (balljoints, tie rods, lower control arm bushings, new aftermarket upper control arms, etc, the rubber bits are 14 years old and seem to be in fine shape, but "while I'm in there"). The other plan was to deal with a faint coolant smell. The radiator is old (and we know what happens to GM plastic tank radiators as they age) and it seemed like a good time to refresh the cooling system. The engine was installed in 2011, so it's due for fresh coolant anyway. The clutch issues are going to keep me from being able to drive it onto an alignment rack until I break the clutch in, so the front end rebuild is off for now (though I have all the parts).

As for the coolant issues (I'm smelling a faint coolant smell at times, so it's not really leaking but I think it's weeping somewhere and I'm into "industrial strength deterrence", so I'll overdo it as usual), Jegs just put their Be Cool direct fit radiators on sale for less than the Dewitts that I was going to order (it was cheaper from Dewitts than from Jegs, though they might match the price...the Be Cool is now cheaper than that). Be Cool makes a good product and a solid radiator. So, I ordered one. I guess I'm a sucker for a sale. And that should be a good start on fixing any cooling system issues. I'm going to change all the radiator hoses and heater hoses and just start fresh. I think I'm going to do a fresh water pump. I wanted to upgrade to something like an Edelbrock water pump (I've used them on many project cars). However, the LS1 version is almost $400 and takes a special $98 pulley. Ouch. Maybe I'll save that until I build more motor some day... I'm guessing I'll just pick up an AC Delco from Rock Auto or somewhere.

Here's the one I have on order:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Be-Cool-Radiators/134/60028/10002/-1

Between suspension, transmission parts and now cooling system parts. It shouldn't take me long to have as much in the car in parts as I paid for the car. Seems about like my style (I'm working to live up to my signature...one project at a time). Oh well, as long as it's fun....right?

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Dec 21 2016, 02:18 PM

Sounds "FUN" ... How many miles are on the car ? I'm surprised the front suspension needs so much love ?

What clutch are you going with ? I think an LS7 clutch would work in my combo, BUT I also like to "over clutch" things because I seem to like to abuse them

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird Dec 21 2016, 02:36 PM

The car has 62k on it. Things aren't worn out. It's actually just fine. I did the front suspension and coil overs. Then the alignment rack showed what appears to be a bent spindle. I bought spindles and aftermarket upper control arms. Now I have to swap out the spindles and change the upper control arms. It seemed reasonable to just replace the other pieces while I'm here. Nothing is worn out or "dead", but I'm going to have most of it apart and the rest of the parts are fairly cheap (at this point), so I ordered the parts. I could have just thrown a spindle on it and the upper arms and called it a day but I was going to have most of it blown apart again so..... Overkill is what I do best.

I also have the adapters for the SKF X-tracker race hubs. I just need the hubs. My plan was to do a big brake kit when I did the front end. The transmission and cooling system updates are cutting into the brake kit and hub budget for now (and we're looking to build a house...so that's killing off the rest).

I have a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch laying in the garage (with new Ram hydraulics). I've run that combo in my original 2002 Camaro, my 1992 Z28, my 1991 Corvette and now this car is getting the same setup. It's been a great package each time I've used it so I'm sticking with the devil I know.

I also found that Rock Auto has a Doorman brand replacement hydraulic line for the clutch master cylinder. $49 (Jegs has the same one for $149). I figured I may as well get rid of the one that's full of all the "gunk" that was in the master cylinder in the first place. I'll keep the old stuff and maybe I can clean it out and use it as a spare, but what's $50 more at this point? lol.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Dec 21 2016, 04:43 PM

Hopefully the coolant smell is coming from the engine bay, and not interior, which would point to a bad heater core.

Heh, something similar is keeping me from tearing into our SVO. The radiator is leaking. I have new, polished, stainless cooling lines for the rest of the engine bay, as well as a header, ported intake and powder-coated valve cover. Since the cooling system would be open to replace the radiator, I might as well replace the cooling lines. Because the intercooler has to come off to replace the lines, I might as well replace the manifolds and valve cover. While everything is out, I might as well roll the car out and thoroughly clean the area where the radiator sits.

One thing just leads to another!!

Posted by: trackbird Dec 21 2016, 05:02 PM

On my original 2002 Z28, the water pump gaskets went bad about 44k miles and it was weeping coolant down the front of the block. I saw it during an oil change and fixed it. That took care of the smell. It's not strong enough to be inside and I'm not losing any real amount of water (the radiator had 1/4-1/2" "missing" when I took the cap off. It's not overheating, there's no "problem", but I'm fairly certain there is a very minor "weep" (I can't even call it a "leak" at this point). The car is really nice and I'd like to take care of it and keep driving it, so I'm fixing little irritating things while doing my best to be able to return the whole thing to stock if I should have to do so (the value suddenly goes nuts and I decide to put it all back stock and take a lot of money for it, etc).

Posted by: GCrites80s Dec 22 2016, 02:22 AM

If any year of 4th gen goes nuts in value it will probably be 2002. It's not like 3rd gen where people are like "Hmmm... '87? (first 350) '89? (best 350 cam, Turbo TA) '90? (labor dispute) '92? (last) '82 Pace Car? (slow but sweet)." 2002 Trans Ams seem to be working their way to legend status for sure due to rarity and their aggressive looks.

I don't know if the plastic radiator problem is a GM thing. Seems like they all seem to hate getting old. Ask a BMW owner!

Posted by: 70T/A400 Dec 30 2016, 05:40 PM

Kevin, what you are experiencing is very similar to anyone else picking up a relatively low mileage car that has sat. The 4th generation has weaknesses such as the T56 transmission and the hydraulics for the clutch. Then there are smaller item such as window motors and turn signals and the cooling system. I am glad to see you have a budget and you are sticking to it, so many times we see builds that are astronomical and the car isn't even paid off yet. Get one problem behind you and move on.

Posted by: trackbird Dec 30 2016, 07:14 PM

I've built a few somewhat silly expensive cars over the years, many have been documented right here. Most of them have eventually become boring and I dumped them for one reason or another.....I'm learning from my mistakes, or I hope I am. There really wasn't a budget for this one, I tend to buy cars and start throwing money into them. I rarely say "I have $1,800 to spend", I'm not that smart. A budget would be smarter.

I expected some issues. I bought a 2002 new, and then I had that 2001 SS for a year or so. In 2011 when this got a new engine it had 43k miles. I bought it in May of 2016 at 58k. So it didn't completely sit, but it certainly wasn't a daily driver. I'd rather see a few thousand miles a year, that doesn't scare me as bad as a 2002 with 1,000 miles on it (or similar).

The T56 is only the slightest bit notchy into 2nd gear. I'm not sure that it's even worth a rebuild. But, I'm going to have it out on the floor and that tells me I should do blocker rings and such, so I'll just do the stage II upgrade and that should be the last time I'm inside it (unless I accidentally build a motor later or something unexpected happens to the gearbox). It's overkill, but I'd rather spend my time driving it and not towing it home. If the trans comes out, new clutch and flywheel should go in and the flywheel may as well be aluminum. lol. And since I'm already pulling the trans to replace the hydraulics....(see the rest of this paragraph).

This one had new window motors, but they are getting "slow" so it may be time to do them again. I've never put window motors in any of my 4th gen cars. I've actually never had hydraulic issues either...so this is a few "firsts".

As I said, I've smelled a faint coolant smell and it's due to be changed (engine went in back in 2011), so I may as well pull it apart, drain it all, change hoses, upgrade the radiator (in case the tanks are leaking...or they eventually will be). And to avoid PS cooler issues, I'll just do that too.

It's "project creep", but I'm keeping it as sane as I can. I'm just trying to make sure next summer is problem free and we can enjoy the car. Part of me wants 500 hp, the other part of me wants to keep this "returnable to stock"...just in case. It is a "survivor" car and it's in nice shape. I'm trying to follow my wife's instructions and avoid "spoiling" it. I think we're going to own this one for quite a few years. As long as we have a place to keep it, it's likely to stay in our possession (I'll build something else "stupid" at a later date).

However, a new Holley water pump was delivered yesterday. So I'm not sure how sane I really am....

Posted by: 70T/A400 Dec 31 2016, 11:16 AM

Kevin, this might help.

When you are looking for a car, you have to know what your intentions are for the car. If it is to preserve a future collectible, then buy quality. If you plan to modify it for performance and drive it a lot, don't waste your money on buying a low mileage stock vehicle.

Posted by: trackbird Dec 31 2016, 03:14 PM

Well, I was planning to "clone" my old 2002 Z28 autocross car (and these things "suck" to drive in stock form with the factory springs/shocks/swaybars). When I was looking, I kept finding "junk" cars for too much money. This car popped up and it looked super clean (and it was) and I really didn't want a convertible (but my wife did since I had her hooked on T tops/Targa top cars). So, we bought it "anyway". Now I'm somewhat blindly trying to figure out what to do with it. lol. I've never been one to buy collectables or "preserve" them. I'm not even good at taking the time to wash cars. I'd make a terrible "waxer". This car turned out to accidentally be nice enough that I don't want to ruin it.

I suspect I'll add a second Camaro/Firebird to the stable at some point in the future and I can do "dumb" things with it. Though I may take this to a few autocross events. It's set up for it now.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 7 2017, 07:28 PM

So, I'm now collecting transmission coolers. Both options have arrived. The larger one is the design Alan uses and it's rated at 7,500 BTU. The smaller is a Setrab that's rated at 5,000 BTU. Since this thing isn't going CMC racing, I think it will be enough...if I can get it to fit. I'll know more when I get the radiator and shroud out of the car.

My radiator hoses have arrived from Rock Auto and the heater hoses should be here soon. I'm just about done gathering up parts, I'm going to need time to get to the garage and get working.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 19 2017, 07:14 PM

And I realized that new clutch reservoirs aren't too expensive and I'm already replacing everything else. So I ordered two. I couldn't decide if I wanted to use the billet version or just stick to the OEM. I'm still not sure, but they arrived today along with the tool that's supposed to depress the release to pull the hydraulic line out of the transmission (I've always used a couple flat blade screwdrivers in the past). Guess we'll see how this works out.

Posted by: 79T/A Jan 19 2017, 11:22 PM

They make a tool for that? You mean I don't have to jam a flat blade screwdriver into my palm when it slips?

Posted by: trackbird Jan 20 2017, 02:31 AM

Who knew?

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/slave-disconnect-tool-98-2002-camaro-firebird-97-2004-corvette-c5/

Posted by: trackbird Jan 25 2017, 02:01 AM

I bought new heater hoses from Rockauto. They weren't particularly cheap, but that was ok if they did the trick. However, the factory heater hoses are crimped (like AC lines) and these are one piece rubber lines that are likely to melt from the exhaust. I don't see a reasonable way to cut the old hoses off and reuse the aluminum pipe. I'm also not sure the heater hose assembly will come out with the engine in place. So, does anybody know if it's possible to buy the stock designed heater hoses? Or, how do they want you to cut the old stuff off and make it fit?

I guess I can buy it from Hawks for a small fortune.

http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/98-02-camaro-firebird-ls1-v8-heater-hoses-new-gm/

I'm guessing I can find it elsewhere too, but I'll have to look.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Jan 25 2017, 03:09 AM

Damn! Cut the old hose off, flare the aluminum lines for AN, and replace with braided steel, or Teflon hose. It's only money.

Seriously. That's the solution the B-body guys use to fix the leaking oil cooler lines that the aftermarket replacements don't fix.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 25 2017, 12:04 PM

I've seen that approach mentioned. I think I'm just going to order the new line "kit" and replace the whole assembly. It's only money, right? lol. I really don't want to half-ass anything on this car. Speaking of which, I sent the Setrab oil cooler back and ordered a C&R Racing oil to water power steering cooler to replace the factory cooler. It appears that it should fit. I hope to see it in the next couple days and then I'll know for sure. It wasn't cheap, but I don't have to cut anything and I can keep the old unit and hoses if someone ever wanted the car returned to stock.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 26 2017, 12:08 AM

New cooler arrived today. This is the power steering cooler I ultimately plan to use. I'm pretty impressed with it and it looks like it will fit perfectly. It's a bit smaller than the stock cooler in the upper hose so I'm going to use the standard "non-cooler" radiator hose and trim a section out to fit. This should be the easy way to do this.

The drawing is for the 1.5" inlet model, I'm using the 1.25" inlet model. Just thought I should clarify that.

Posted by: BumpaD_Z28 Jan 26 2017, 06:40 AM

What make and model is this unit ?!

~DaVe

Posted by: trackbird Jan 26 2017, 12:13 PM

https://www.crracing.com/inline_power_steering_cooler_1_14_outlets

Posted by: Ojustracing Jan 26 2017, 04:33 PM

Kevin search the part number that Hawks has listed for the hose assembly. Found some other less expensive options but not $100 less though.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 26 2017, 05:34 PM

Yup, that's what I did. Ordered one this morning from one of the online GM parts places. I think it was $142 to my door ($21 in freight). So I should have that on my doorstep soon.

Now I'm going to actually have to start working on the damn thing....lol.

Posted by: 70T/A400 Jan 26 2017, 07:48 PM

This is a great thread.

I would like to see a list of the parts you are putting on your car.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 26 2017, 09:37 PM

Thanks. I often feel like these threads are a way for me to keep track of things but I'm not always sure how much interest there is in some of my automotive ministrations. lol. I'm having fun and if someone can learn something or avoid a mistake based on my mistakes....even better.

It's kind of scattered throughout the thread, but I can try to make a concise parts list.

Basically a bad clutch master/slave (no clutch disengagement) prompted:

Ram adjustable master cylinder
Ram slave and throw out bearing
Fidanza flywheel
Centerforce dual friction clutch
Stage 2 transmission upgrade
Doorman hydraulic line (master cylinder to quick disconnect)
Ram remote slave bleeder
Hawks clutch reservoir (likely the billet one)

And a faint coolant smell convinced me it was time to add:

BeCool 2 core aluminum radiator
Power Steering cooler listed above
OEM heater hoses
heater hose to throttle body
radiator hoses
Holley Water pump

And while the coolant is out of it, I'll send the throttle body to Lingenfelter to be ported...why not?


But I got ahead of myself. I found a bent spindle when I did the alignment so I have Global West upper front control arms and all new bushings and balljoints, outer tie rod ends, used spindles, Rocketman C5 (SKF Xtracker) front hub adapters and other bits to rebuild the front. However, I can't drive it onto an alignment rack on a new clutch and that needs fixed first. So, the transmission is first, then cooling system, then I'll rebuild the front end (just a general freshening since I'm going to be in there anyway) and see where else this project goes.

I was planning to install a big brake kit and the hubs and front end stuff this winter. But the clutch took over and I've reshuffled the priorities. I hope to be at the UMI cruise in this year and maybe some power tour? Who knows where this car may pop up. I'd like to get out to enjoy it this summer.

The rest of the parts list (some already installed):

Yea, the mod list is:

UMI STB (already installed)
UMI SFC (already installed)
UMI Coil over shocks/springs (already installed)
UMI Rotojoint PHB (already installed)
UMI Sway bars (already installed)
UMI billet sway bar brackets with poly bushings (these things are artwork) (already installed)
UMI Poly/Rotojoint LCA's
Custom refinished charcoal SS wheels (already installed)
B&M Ripper (sport shifter) shifter (already installed)
Hurst Shift Knob (already installed)
SLP TCS disable module (already installed)
SLP "lid" (already installed)
Hooker cat back (possibly, my wife thinks it's a bit too loud)
Fresh fluids
Jegs Skip shift delete (already installed)
SLP front license plate bracket (needed in this state) (already installed)
Stop Tech pads (front and rear) (already installed)
Centric rotors front and rear (already installed)
TA performance rear end girdle (already installed)
iPod adapter (hooked up instead of the CD changer) (already installed)
ATI 10% underdrive balancer
Paintless dent removal for a few small spots and a little paint touch up

I've also been debating the SLP "free cold air mod" kit (that isn't free, but does the same thing while likely avoiding getting so much muck in the filter). It's worth power, but the last car I had with the free cold air mod had a filter that was caked with "mud" from the road spray. And I have to cut up the stuff under the airbox.

This is also a great time to thank Ryan and the UMI crew again for all of their help and involvement with this project. You won't meet a better bunch of gearheads anywhere. And I've had fun getting to help test the coil over kit and offering feedback on it (I think this was the first "non-UMI shop car" to see a set of these). There are a lot of choices out there but I've been extremely impressed with the parts and the crew from UMI.

Once the above list is complete, I'm considering a 212/218 .550/.550 lift cam for it *(or something similar...just say a "small", streetable cam). I don't want a high RPM monster, but 20-40 more hp would be nice. I don't want a cam that needs headers either, just a street driver with more oomph. I was talking to Jeff Creech (the Milkman) last night and we were discussing a cam package. I'm considering dragging it to the east coast this summer and dropping it at Carolina Auto Masters for a bit more power. I could do the cam and I have a dyno shop 1000 yards from my house (no joke), but I'm overdue for a trip to see Jeff and Julie (CMC#37 here) and it sounds like a great adventure to drag it south, tune it up and drive it around the east coast for a bit.

I guess the goal with this car is becoming more clear. I want "more" of everything, without ruining the cars street manners. If I could keep the stock idle and gain 50 hp some other way, I'd be fine with that. I'm not looking to do a cam for the sound (it's a bonus, but I don't care really), I just want more power and civilized street manners. I want a car I can hop in today and drive clear across country without taking a toolbox with me and spare valve springs, etc. More grip, better handling, more power...but on the mild end of things. Building a better street car (and not spoiling it or making it so I can't return it to stock or so that it sucks to drive or becomes unreliable). I think the motto is "Make it better".

Posted by: ar52kortlang Jan 27 2017, 01:29 AM

Thanks for sharing. .. subscribed

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jan 27 2017, 02:16 PM

I'm not sure we are reading the same thread.

Kevin, let me know if you make it to a local autocross. I want to feel better about how much I've spent on mine.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 27 2017, 02:35 PM

I was kinda thinking the same thing. I suspect you'll know the car if/when you see it. lol.

This build is not the cheapest thing, but it's nothing "wild". That's likely the weird disconnect. No cam, heads, headers, stroker kit and a blower on this one....but quality parts aren't cheap. And my signature is still the unfortunate truth.

At one point I gave the cost breakdown to that point. I guess I'll try to update it here (I probably don't want to know).

I was trying to keep this sane and stay accountable, so I'll update the totals for those who are following along (it's worse than I realized...but it always is):

$11,500 - Car
$199 - UMI PHB
$499 - UMI SFC
$389 - UMI Swaybars
$249 - UMI Aluminum sway bar mounts
$1849 - UMI Shocks/springs (coil overs)
$200 - B&M Ripper shifter
$40 - Hurst Shift knob
$150 - 10 bolt girdle
$550 - 10 spoke wheels
$650 - wheel refinishing
$450 - new tires
$99 - iPod adapter
$99 - SLP "lid"
$79 - UMI STB
$200 - Stoptech pads (F&R) and new front rotors
$20 - SLP license plate bracket
$39 - SLP TCS disable module
$20 - Jegs skip shift delete
$199 - UMI Poly/Rotojoint LCA's
$180 - Ram adjustable master cylinder
$150 - Ram slave and throw out bearing
$389 - Fidanza flywheel
$460 - Centerforce dual friction clutch
$700 - Stage 2 transmission upgrade (parts only)
$50 - Doorman hydraulic line (master cylinder to quick disconnect)
$40 - Ram remote slave bleeder
$100 - Hawks billet clutch reservoir
$475 - BeCool 2 core aluminum radiator
$375 - C&R Power Steering cooler
$140 - OEM heater hoses
$18 - heater hose to throttle body
$25 - radiator hoses
$150 - Holley Water pump
$450 - Rocketman hub adapters
$130 - used spindles
$175 - Moog front end rebuilt parts
$225 - Global West upper control arms

$21,712 (yea, I really didn't want to know)

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Jan 27 2017, 07:28 PM

I haven't made a complete total for my build, but I am 95% certain that is more money than I have in all of the parts that are on my ESP build. I didn't spare expenses either.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 27 2017, 07:29 PM

I could have had an ESP car $5k ago...but I'm not that smart.

Posted by: trackbird Jan 28 2017, 05:01 PM

I'm now registered for the UMI cruise in:

http://umiperformance.com/umicruisein/

I haven't been around an autocross course in nearly 10 years. I think I last ran in 2007 or 2008. But this seems like a good excuse to dust things off, buy a fresh helmet and drag the car out to play.

Who's coming along?

Posted by: trackbird Feb 1 2017, 12:07 PM

New heater hoses arrived yesterday. I did manage to order the factory assembly with the aluminum pipes and rubber hoses on the ends. It came from GMpartsdirect...with a made in China decal on it. I don't know if it's OEM or a reproduction? Oh well.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Feb 1 2017, 02:00 PM

I'm seeing a LOT of parts coming out of original GM boxes with 'Made in China' stamp on them, so you probably have the real McCoy there. Hopefully, the QC on those parts are a little better than run-of-the-mill Chinese products. Most of the parts for our Holden (Caprice) come from China. I'm sure that's how the Aussies do it.

One of the few recalls on our '02 GMC was the tailgate straps. It seems the OEM ones could suddenly break under a load. I was quite disappointed when I had a look at the replaced straps that proudly-displayed the 'Made In China' stamp. Luckily, though, they've held just fine, so far (knocking on wood sound now), and we've had pretty good loads on them.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 1 2017, 05:40 PM

The tailgate straps on my 2015 are already split and showing signs of rust. I need to go see the dealer about getting those replaced under warranty. It's not like I use the tailgate every day, it's not a landscaping truck. I have no idea why they have already split the plastic covers and started to rust.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Feb 1 2017, 07:16 PM

So they STILL haven't learned how to do them right!?!

Posted by: GCrites80s Feb 2 2017, 04:25 PM

They do. They just don't want to spend the money.

Posted by: Steve91T Feb 2 2017, 05:10 PM

The straps on my 99 F250 are still just fine. Just saying

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Feb 2 2017, 05:24 PM

Heh. The tailgate straps on our GMC looked fine, it was just that some had come apart under load, which, I guess, could make corporate lawyers nervous. The replacements still look fine.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 2 2017, 07:09 PM

It's just the rest of the truck that sucks.

Just kidding. The 7.3 liter trucks are serious trucks. Unfortunately they ride like serious trucks too. But they will certainly do work and lots of it.

Posted by: Steve91T Feb 2 2017, 10:45 PM

They have a really smooth ride actually! As long as you have about 1500 lbs in the bed. 😄

Posted by: trackbird Feb 2 2017, 10:52 PM

We replaced rear springs on a 2001 F250 (the one we put a crate diesel in a few years ago) and my friend said "Sure, I want the upgraded springs". Now the rear ride height is about 4-5" higher than it was, the springs weighed 110 lbs each and it needs 2 tons in the bed to ride decent. lol.

Posted by: Steve91T Feb 3 2017, 06:00 PM

I believe it. Someday when I find about $2500 in the couch, I'm going to get the firestone airbag kit that replaces all but one leaf, and has an automatic ride height adjustment using an onboard compressor. You have a smooth ride, but when you load up the bed, it automatically compensates.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 3 2017, 06:06 PM

These trucks are all about compensating.

Honestly, that wouldn't be a bad plan. My old Chevy 3500 rode better than my friends F250. Whenever we took my truck places, he'd always stretch and say "Cadillac". Compared to his, it was.

Posted by: nape Feb 4 2017, 06:00 PM

Not sure how heavy you haul, but going back to stock tire sizes helps the ride assuming you always leave them aired up.

I've got a 2004 F350 6.0/ZF6 dually. I singled it up in the rear last winter and it was actually enjoyable to drive. It's amazing how much the extra 150lbs of wheel/tire hurts ride and driveability.

Airing up/down a dually is a pain, it's almost the same time to swap wheels/tires.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 19 2017, 07:25 PM

Transmission is out. We pulled it on Friday night. It was a bit more challenging than I remember so I'm apparently getting old, or this car is a bit harder to work on than the last few. Maybe both. lol.

Now to get time to go through it.

Posted by: Steve91T Feb 19 2017, 08:03 PM

I've never just pulled a transmission, what's the challenging part?

I'm looking forward to seeing the progress.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 19 2017, 09:54 PM

This trans didn't swing down as much I expected. I had a tricky time finding the bolt near the vent tube on the trans, or at least getting a wrench on it. I've pulled a few of these, but this one was a bit harder to get loose. Not sure why. lol.

Posted by: trackbird Feb 26 2017, 09:28 PM

Today's mission was to change the clutch master cylinder.

I wanted to drain the hoses and get the brake fluid out. So I drove the roll pin out of the old slave cylinder and removed the inlet. I clipped it onto the line from the master and let it drain. I ran some brake clean through it and pumped the pedal until it's dry. Then I removed the old slave parts and started to remove the master cylinder.

I got the old master cylinder loose and started to remove the U bolt but it still had the factory spring clip retainer on it (which is under the bracket from the pedals such that it sucks to remove it). I tried to pound it through and I split the board I was using. I tried some other things and finally I remembered a chunk of aluminum I had (it's a long metal shaft, I think it is part of a camera flash setup). I drilled a hole to index on the end of the ubolt and drilled a deeper hole on the opposite end so I could use an air chisel. That did a great job of punching the ubolt through the spring clip.

I hooked the new hose to the new master cylinder and got everything in place by myself. I felt pretty good until I realized that the Ram adjustable master cylinder heim joint is too thick to allow the snap ring to go onto the clutch pedal. I knew I should have checked that first. I had already adjusted the master cylinder to stock length before installing it. I had to pull the heim joint off and grind about .020" off of it so I could get the snap ring onto the clutch pedal. Why does nothing aftermarket actually fit the things it's supposed to connect to? I'd have been done about an hour sooner if it wasn't for the curse of the aftermarket part. Guess I shouldn't be surprised, things always seem to go this way.

Check your heim joint on the pedal before installation if you're using the RAM adjustable master cylinder.

I also tried to install the billet aluminum clutch reservoir and it doesn't quite fit the bracket on the 4th gen. Since I'm lazy, I just installed the new OEM plastic one and buttoned it all up.

Now to get time to open up the transmission...

Posted by: Eugenio_SS Mar 9 2017, 09:20 PM

I have a huge paperweight that might be usefull for you.
Forged LS2, whole engine (except accessories) and intake manifold... headers too.
made 510rwhp.

It's a useless paperweight for me... until I get a new toy project... thinking maybe Suburban baja and slap a twin scroll on it, and change its pistons for low comp.
I don't need more toys now.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 9 2017, 11:48 PM

I'm afraid to ask how much you'd want. That motor ran hard when I last drove it in a convertible....lol.

Posted by: Eugenio_SS Mar 10 2017, 12:17 AM

It had become a slouch for my standards... Lol
Call me.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 10 2017, 01:10 AM

Bwhahaha....If it was anybody else saying that I'd just laugh at them. However, I've known you for far too long so I know you're quite serious.

Posted by: Steve91T Mar 11 2017, 02:33 PM

Hey so I just saw that you know Jeff at CAM! He's a tuning genius. When my dad had the 396 LT1, nobody could tune the cam surge out, except Jeff.

So this 1SC tends to pop out of 3rd once in a while. It has only done it on downshifts while decelerating. So I might be doing something similar soon.

I'm being lazy because I know it's probably in here. Are you rebuilding the tranny yourself? I'd be interested in just a simple rebuild, no upgrades.

Is that something that's doable by me and how much does something like that cost? Or maybe I should just get a T56 from Hawks for $1500 with lower miles and sell mine for whatever I can get for it.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 11 2017, 03:29 PM

Yea, I met Jeff at the 2005 NFME (National Fbody Motorsports Event). I traded some parts for some beer and they brought me the beer on the last night of the event. So, I'm out in the parking lot giving away beer to those who would help me drink it. Jeff was among those guys (I fed him a Shiner Bock or two). I was texting with him about cams the other day and waiting to see how yours runs, etc. If I do anything, it will be later this year.

There's a sticky with the transmission rebuild manual (hosted by the New Jersey Fbody board now):

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=5167

You need some specialty tools. Racerdad916 rebuilds these things and we were going to do it. Depending how things go, I may just do it. You'll need some snap ring pliers, specialty pullers, etc. I think I have $800 or so in the new 1/2 and 3/4 synchros and the "Stage II" upgraded internal parts. You don't have to go that far. Throw a synchro and new blocker rings in it and put it back together.

Be gentle with the snap rings. A friend over stretched one and it came off, the gear ground on the housing and it made a mess that could have been avoided. Also, a few snap rings say to replace them when you remove them. A snap ring kit for the whole transmission is about $19. So just buy one with the other parts.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 14 2017, 02:27 PM

I started going through my parts and looking at what I received. Oddly, I had two sets of billet keys (3/4 and 5/6 that are the same set) ordered from different companies and both sent me the same thing and it looks pretty odd. See attached pics.

I received my orders in November/December. I just emailed Hawks and The Gearbox to see if they can help me get the right parts (assuming these aren't, but I've never seen a synchro that takes mismatched keys). I'm not sure that a couple of those even fit a T56 (unless they fit reverse, but I don't think so).

I'll let you know what they say. And while I'm at it, I guess I'll order the billet reverse keys (no reason...but since I'm in there). I don't expect to be doing full power burnouts in reverse. lol. But you never know.

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Mar 14 2017, 03:11 PM

Heh, you never know. Back when a local club used to run drag racing events, one of the members with a 4-speed Trans Am (1977, IIRC) would accidentally roll forward through the lights when he was staging. Sooooo, he backed the car up until both staging lights were lit.

Sure enough, when the lights started coming down, he reved the engine for his launch, and dumped the clutch, in reverse, when the lights went green.

And he did it two more times during the same event!

Luckily, we was running street tires, and the track didn't have much prep.

Posted by: GCrites80s Mar 14 2017, 06:04 PM

The reverse shift pads were actually the most worn out off all the pads in my T56 when we were messing with it yesterday. Either the PO was into gymkhana or just loved to bang into reverse.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 14 2017, 06:34 PM

Ah, you mean the synchro pads that go on the shift fork. I'm talking about the 3 keys that go in each synchronizer. These are part of the strength upgrade of the Stage 2 package.

Posted by: GCrites80s Mar 14 2017, 07:09 PM

I was just surprised the pads had that much wear.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 16 2017, 02:12 PM

I could see that. Reverse is the gear that everybody "mashes" into the gate. You sit down in the car, start it, step on the clutch and "bam" over and into the reverse gate. The other gears tend to "slide in" when things are moving. And the moving gears are likely covered in fresh oil that helps minimize wear when they are typically used. But reverse would seem more likely to get beat on.



You know, it seemed odd that I'd get the same mismatched set of keys from two vendors. The Gearbox just emailed me back and I realized, I didn't flip those keys over. I didn't believe they were the same width, but I am guessing that flipping one over will fix my mismatch. This will teach me to be tired when I start looking into these things.

However, Tick is sending me the keys/springs that were missing from my synchro assemblies. I found it odd that I didn't get them. I'm upgrading them anyway, but I'll put them in the parts box for some other time.

Ah well, sometimes I'm just dumb.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 26 2017, 12:22 AM

Today we went through the transmission and did the full rebuild.

Unfortunately we found out that I accidentally bought the standard blocker ring kit and not the carbon fiber blockers for first and second. I'm sure it's going to be fine, it's all fresh and new synchros for 1/2 and 3/4. So, the transmission is back together (thanks Racerdad916) and I got the clutch installed before my shoulder decided I was done for the day.

Tomorrow I hope to get the transmission reinstalled. We'll see how it goes.

Posted by: GCrites80s Mar 26 2017, 12:38 AM

I ended up having to work today or else I would have invited myself over.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Mar 26 2017, 12:39 AM

One of these days I will have to bring my trans over so I can have someone who has done it before make sure I don't make mistakes. Previous owner really did a number on 5th, and it's slowly taking everything else out with it.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 26 2017, 12:46 AM

5th shouldn't be that bad. You don't have to pull the case off to get to it. If the rest is damaged, it becomes a much more involved process.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 27 2017, 01:24 AM

When we rebuilt the trans, the new 4th gear synchro seemed a bit tight. Once it was assembled, we pulled it through the gears using a roll pin punch for a handle and decided it was ok. Once the trans was in tonight, third gear was "vague" and it felt like the entire gate was bound up. It made it very hard to find neutral. So, I tried 4th and it ground into 4th....every time. So, we pulled the transmission back out. It appears that we got a defective synchro or something else strange is going on. I'll know more in a few days.

Ugh.

Posted by: Steve91T Mar 27 2017, 05:32 AM

Oh no I'm sorry. That doesn't sound like fun

Posted by: trackbird Mar 27 2017, 10:59 AM

Actually I skipped a bit ahead in that story.

First, we couldn't bleed the clutch. I was getting bubbles in the reservoir and my wife said "this feels like a brake pedal". So we screwed around for a while and decided the quick connect wasn't connected properly. Just enough for fluid to leak. So, we grabbed the old hose, cleaned it off and it snapped right in by hand. We decided we were going to have to pull the master cylinder and change the hose. We managed to pop it out of the firewall and lay it on a long prybar to drive the pin out, even got it back together in that position. We managed to do this without having to pull the reservoir off of the hose and totally remove it (though we had it out of the firewall and under the brake booster). Once that was done, it bled and the clutch started working properly.

So, DO NOT BUY THE DOORMAN REPLACEMENT CLUTCH LINE. I linked it in here earlier, it didn't fit. If you do buy one, test fit it into your slave cylinder BEFORE installing it into the master cylinder and installing it in the car.

While I'm on that subject. The RAM remote clutch bleeder kit didn't have the right fitting to connect to the RAM slave cylinder (just an overpriced stock slave from what I can tell, I removed the bleeder valves from both and they matched). So, the remote bleeder didn't fit either. I need to contact a couple companies about returning the things that didn't work (Tremec synchro, Doorman clutch master hose, RAM remote bleeder).

The trans will be apart again in a day or two and I'll sort out what to do with it all.

I have to thank Racerdad916 for the rebuild and help and Voodoo92 (he's not on here much) for being crazy enough to leave work and head down to have fun with transmissions when my wife sent him a text yesterday.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 28 2017, 11:30 AM

When we rebuilt the transmission, we did it with a series of gear pullers and an impact gun. That worked well and is how Racerdad has been doing them for years. When we did my trans, it was tight enough that one of the pullers bent. And using them takes time and I'm not getting any younger. So, yesterday I delivered my trans and a new 20 ton shop press to his garage so we can tear this apart again. I think it should go a bit faster this time. Besides, every kid wants a shop press! (Or am I the only weirdo?)

Now we just need time to get it apart.

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Mar 28 2017, 12:34 PM

My 20T press is one of my favorite tools. Use it for just about anything

Posted by: Racerdad916 Mar 28 2017, 03:54 PM

Every garage needs a press, or a conglomeration of home made pullers... What ever works...

Posted by: 79T/A Mar 28 2017, 05:30 PM

Kevin- were the defective synchros from Tremec or thegearbox.org? I'm going to be rebuilding mine this summer and I noticed they have two options for synchros. I was planning on going with the aftermarket REM polished option, as they are a good bit cheaper than the tremec parts and always seem to be in stock.

Posted by: GCrites80s Mar 28 2017, 06:14 PM

I had a press for 15 years and never used it. Got it for free; gave it away.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 28 2017, 07:19 PM

Agreed. Something tells me we will use them both...maybe at the same time.



Mine were OEM Tremec synchros. Came from Tick Performance (not that it likely matters). I bought all Tremec parts for this project.

Edit:

The tight/bad synchro was a REM polished aftermarket synchro from Tick Performance. It wasn't a Tremec synchro.

Posted by: Racerdad916 Mar 29 2017, 03:44 AM

The key is that if the assy is snug with the keys and springs, it will be really tight with the trans assembled. The sliders should move easily when moved without the fork on an assembled main shaft. I'll hit the inside of the slider with the bead blaster. That should remove enough of the coating to allow good movement....

Posted by: trackbird Mar 29 2017, 11:34 AM

I forgot to bring you the shifter with the trans. Once we get it back together, we'll know if it's right by putting the shifter on it. I'll try to remember it when we get time to get together and look at it.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 29 2017, 02:03 PM

I'm still puzzled. The Gearbox shows the aftermarket synchros as "REM polished". I ordered/paid for OEM Tremec Synchros (from Tick performance) and they showed up in boxes marked REM polished (with no Tremec decal). I'm not sure which synchros I got. So, I just ordered another snap ring kit (that I forgot) and another set of 1/2 and 3/4 synchros (OEM Tremec again) to go with the carbon fiber blocker ring kit. I'll sort out if I got OEM synchros or not once these arrive. Then I'll deal with it all, or I'll have lots of parts for sale. I have a this kit:

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3838217/3503769.htm

that has 3 minutes of run time on it and was never on the "ground" (just run for a few seconds on jack stands). I guess it will be for sale soon since I'm changing over to the other parts. Anybody need some new parts at a discount?

At this point, I should have purchased a T56 Magnum, I think I'd be ahead. Oh well....

Posted by: Racerdad916 Mar 30 2017, 05:00 AM

I'll get it on the sling and open it in the morning. If the parts show up, maybe we can get it done in short order..

Posted by: trackbird Mar 30 2017, 11:05 AM

I suspect I'll have parts on Friday. If we can work it out, I'll come help you. Or we can do it when we can get together.

Posted by: rocky Mar 30 2017, 05:05 PM

All that makes me think I should just send mine to Tick and let them do it for me. I do not have a press but I can get creative with pullers. The cheap side of me says do it yourself. If I do hopefully I wont have these headaches. I was planning on the gear box for parts if I do it myself

Posted by: trackbird Mar 30 2017, 05:14 PM

I was going to get the stage 2 kit from the gearbox and it was in stock when I first looked. I didn't buy it right then and I didn't know they are hard to get. So, I wound up "building" my stage 2 kit from a few vendors. At this point I'm headed towards the worlds most expensive T56 overhaul. And honestly, the gearbox was fine (2nd might have been slightly notchy) and I was doing it as a "while I was in there" deal.

If you have a harbor freight nearby, I just used a 20% off coupon on a $169 press and walked out for $140-something (tax and all). For that price, we should have a press around to use.

Also, if you're going to do it, I may be able to offer you a deal on some parts. My 1/2 synchro was perfect (for the 3 minutes I tested it on jackstands). So I'll have a spare one once the other two arrive. I'm going to have to go back to Tick and see if they will take the 3/4 synchro back. If not, I may have to deal with my credit card. We'll know more once it's apart again.

I also have a full carbon fiber blocker ring kit coming. I really just want the 1st/2nd gear parts. I have brand new OEM parts (3 minutes of run time) that I might be able to combine with the rest of the new kit (all the other stuff I have is the carbon fiber blocker rings, I just wanted the carbon lined 1/2 parts...not sure it's really needed, the stock 2002 parts have been great in several cars for me now).

Anyway, I might be able to save you some money on some parts. Or I may just send the new parts back to Tick and use what I have with the new synchros. I need to quit before the transmission is worth more than I paid for the car.

Also, the Gearbox builds their kits from parts (not a pre packaged kit) and I was missing the 5/6 blocker rings. I didn't know they came in the kit, but I noticed that they did. I emailed them and asked about them (and told them I had a 2nd day freight order that I placed that day) and they said they'd get them in the box and send them to me. Excellent customer service from them. I'm impressed. This is also a warning to check your parts list when it arrives and not 3 months later.

Posted by: rocky Mar 30 2017, 11:46 PM

Mine is grinding 3rd to 4th and 4th to 3rd. I was planning on the synchronizers for 1-2 and 3-4 and 5-6, the bronze shifter bushing, bronze fork pads, steel 3-4 fork, snap ring kit and the billet keys. Tear down and hope that is all I need/want. I am always interested in saving money lol. I may have to go get that press for that price. I always seem to need a press more than a puller. Let me know about your synchro when your replacements get there. I am interested.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 31 2017, 01:47 AM

Cool. I should have the second set of synchros tomorrow. The 1/2 that I have works flawlessly. I intend to return the 3/4 that I got. I ordered two more just to compare. If they match...cool. If they don't, I just wanted the option of swapping both.

Your rebuild plans are what my rebuild plans are/were. Mine just went a little sideways. Let me see what all I have extra and maybe I can help you out/save you some money....at least a little bit.

Just google harbor freight coupon and print the page off of the sale flyer. That's what I did.

Posted by: Racerdad916 Mar 31 2017, 03:45 AM

IIRC, Most of our plans go atleast a little sideways. Sometimes it fun, and sometimes, it's stupid expensive....

Posted by: landstuhltaylor Mar 31 2017, 04:48 AM

That's what I paid for my press. Carried it home in my Miata and I've been making use of it ever since. Most important job I used it for was suspension bushings but I've also used it for wheel studs and other random things. Was huge for rebuilding the 10 bolt. Don't have a vice either so it fills in there too.

Posted by: trackbird Mar 31 2017, 10:57 AM

Yea, I really need to quit living up to my signature. I've tried, I swear I have. It's not going well. Maybe I need a 12 step program? Seems unlikely I'd walk that far.....




In a Miata? You're more of a madman than I thought. I thought getting a 6' folding table in a 2002 Z28 coupe was a fun trick (with the hatch shut). A press in a Miata beats that by miles. Well done!

Posted by: CrashTestDummy Mar 31 2017, 12:37 PM

I have one of those presses. I bought it second hand from a friend who was relocating for work. I got to use it about two times, then it puked it's oil out, and I'm not sure it'll work any more at all. I need to replace the bottle jack so I have a working press again, but haven't had the need lately. I guess if I up the quality of the bottle jack, I'll have a better press in the shop.